I am just going to set this right here... Mad Max content:

wcelliot wrote: There are things that are morally wrong and things that are not legal... don't confuse the two.

^^^This^^^^

Its illegal in many states and municipalities to work or even wash your car on sunday, ('lords day', not mine but some) have sex on sunday, have oral sex between married males and females, let alone same gender sex, etc etc etc etc etc and on and on. There are all kinds of retarded laws which we all ignore as we each personally see fit to do so. And rightly so.

Without a title in most states you will not be able to obtain one. A bill of sale is just that and although its not something that would keep me from buying the cars if I wanted them it will prevent many. Obtaining fully legal paperwork on an odd import car without fabricating documents or other manipulation is not nearly as easy as some would have you think, and varies between states as well. If it was always just a matter of filling out one simple doc everyone would be doing it. But its not.

The subject of re-body or re-vin always brings the 'do gooders', supposed 'law abiding', the slaves to legal technicalities, and those looking to save us from ourselves, out of the shadows to cry loudly. But both are a practice that DO and should have their place within the classic car hobby....where fraud is NOT a factor.

Calling a XB Falcon a Torino is fraud though. This isn't trying to get the car semi-legally or even attempting to keep it a Falcon, it is outright "I don't give a berkley about the rules and I am going to willfully break the law and fraudulently represent this car without even attempting to try the legal way".

Having imported both a 25+ and an under 25 car legally into the US, I can tell you from experience that it is actually quite easy. Especially in this case as the car is already in the US, it's a recognized classic marque that has been imported before, and you will have a Bill of Sale and auction results.

Using a title service, getting the car registered through Georgia or Oregon first, or getting help on the title/BoS may all be "technically" illegal, gray-areas, or a round-about, but they are moral. Swapping a VIN tag from a 73 Torino is immoral. Pretty simple.

Getting a title for an old car isn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be. There are several totally legal ways to go about it. No reason to swap VIN plates. If you're doing everything above board- buying a car from someone who didn't steal it or something- it shouldn't be a big problem. Just takes some time and/or money to get the title taken care of.

racinginc215 wrote: good for you boy scout building clones of cars is morally wrong too in most circles so that POS javelin better stay stock. or your morally wrong it's easy to go out and buy what you want and not have to fake it. berkeley off boyscout.

There's nothing morally wrong about a clone, as long as you call it a clone. Morally wrong would be changing my Javelin's VIN to a 401 AMX to match the AMX parts and 401 going on it. Making a 6-cylinder Camaro a COPO 427 isn't wrong, but changing the VIN to match it would be. Painting a car a more desirable car isn't wrong, but having a new door tag made to make it look like the original color is. Restoring a car isn't wrong, but re-stamping an engine, frame, and trans and then selling the car as "matching numbers" is. It really is very, very simple though apparently you cannot process that.

Why is so hard for you to accept that it is easy to legally title this car? Why are you acting like such a jerkoff? It can't be sloth, because buying 2 cars, cutting out VIN plates, and making it look not hackneyed takes far more work than filling out an entire 1-page document and going to the DMV. There is no gray area here, or moral obligation, or boy-scout snitchiness. Title the car as a Falcon (however you want to go about it) is fine. Hacking up a Torino and pretending it's not wrong is illegal and stupid and pretending otherwise is retarded.

racinginc215 wrote: Oh yeah and we all can't be as perfect as you with your registration fraud. Aug. 24, 2010 11:09 p.m. P71 UltraDork Aug. 24, 2010 11:09 p.m. P71 UltraDork Javelin Update - 8/24/2010 I didn't work on the Jav itself today, but I did take a lunch break off to go to the DOL. Long story short, all of my paperwork is in order and the car is legally mine with notarization. All I have to do is present it to the Washington State Police for inspection and I can have a title and registration. What that means is I have to get it running and driving under it's own power and able to pass a safety inspection. So after I get it cleaned up a little and running I need to fix the brakes and make sure it has decent tires on it. It will also probably need an exhaust. There's one broken lens and I'll have to check the light bulbs. I have direction! As a bonus, the DOL lady used to own a Hornet so I was able to sweet-talk my way into transferring the Hornet's Collector Plate (pay registration once, never have to renew, no front plate!!!) to the Javelin (which is sweet because it ends in 073 and both the Hornet and Javelin are 73's). So, not very exciting but vitally important to the project. (It's been abandoned longer than I've been alive and there was no title). I'll work on it soon, I promise!

How is that registration fraud? I went to the DOL and followed the rules. I have the Bill of Sale (notarized) and the original shop's lien on the car (also notarized) and filled out the proper paperwork at the DOL. Once the State Police inspect the car, you know to ensure I didn't SWAP THE BERKLEYING VIN, I get a new title in my name. I did what you WON'T.

Dudes, let it rest. You're way past getting anything productive out of this conversation and are just whining at each other. Let's get on to more important topics like throttle by wire. Oh, E36 M3. Never mind.

I will just leave this here.

Javelin wrote: Calling a XB Falcon a Torino *is* fraud though.

No. You seem a bit 'obsessed' as are many technicality whistle blowers. Actually its not fraud. If it makes you feel better title it as a Falcon. In either case there would not be fraud...UNLESS perhaps you convinced some future buyer that it was a car different then what it actually is or sold it with others believing it as something other then what it is. Disclosing what it is and how you put it on the road whether you did the above or 'washed the title' through a state where you could register it are all one in the same....technicalities that dont matter much to some reasonable guy just wanting to drive the car....much like breaking laws about going down on your BF/GF/wife or washing your car on sunday etc etc etc and broke the law by doing so.

You cannot legally import an under 25 year old car as you have suggested. Try that with a 90's classic Mini for example... you cant do it as you suggest, just by filling out some form, or by a vin inspection etc. Suggesting so is a bit retarded. Try getting one through customs without manipulated paperwork. Good luck. A 90's Mini is actually technically 'illegal' here......no matter how you wash the paperwork....which is typically done by calling it a different year then it is and re-vin. Manipulating the vin/paperwork is required, thats common knowledge. Yet there are gobs of them being driven/sold here. They are on Ebay every day and advertised all over the web. Oh my!!! Call the authorities!!!!! Its a fraud!!! We are all gonna go to hell!! lol.....

Seriously.... No one has been defrauded who KNOWINGLY buys one, knowing that the car is year or specific model other then paperwork indicates, and that was simply the method used to get a hobbyist an old car to drive. Legal technicality? Yes. Fraud? Uhhh no. Immoral?? Absolutely not.

So it's not fraudulent to the government or DMV/DOL to represent it as a Torino or a US-spec car of anything other than it's VIN? We are not talking about new MINI's here (which I know all about and frankly don't care), we are talking about a 25+ car. You fill out your info, the cars info, check the box that says it's over 25, and you're done. How is that so difficult?

Javelin wrote: Having imported both a 25+ and an under 25 car legally into the US,

You suggested you could import a car such as a 'new Mini' (imports under 25) here....'legally'...and I am saying you are full of crap....or misinformed at the very least....or perhaps going by something you did ages ago.

I think you likely know precious little about CURRENT importation. What they 'used to do' doesnt apply anymore.

Obsession is not always rational. ;-)

So, about a month ago I got really caught up in a thread. I kept posting and posting. I was right too. But it was stupid. If I could go back in time, I'd tell myself to cut it out.

Just sharing.

metalman wrote:

Javelin wrote: Having imported both a 25+ and an under 25 car legally into the US,

You suggested you could import a car such as a 'new Mini' (imports under 25) here....'legally'...and I am saying you are full of crap....or misinformed at the very least....or perhaps going by something you did ages ago. I think you likely know precious little about CURRENT importation. What they 'used to do' doesnt apply anymore. Obsession is not always rational. ;-)

Bwah?!? How in the heck did you infer that I either did or condone importing Mini's by that statement. I stated that I had legally imported both a 25+ and an under 25 car. I never named the cars! I am confounded by the assumptions in this thread (I am also not a Boy Scout).

The under-25 car I imported was a Canadian-market GSR Integra. It was already on the "legal" list and just needed the form with the right exemption number, and a DMV inspection. Took about 20 minutes.

You spoke as though you knew about importing cars, you IMPLIED it was all very easy with your statements. Obviously that is not really the case. But...that is pretty much what I figured.

metalman wrote: You spoke as though you knew about importing cars, you IMPLIED it was all very easy with your statements. Obviously that is not really the case. But...that is pretty much what I figured.

It is very easy if it's already on "the list" (which posted links to). Or if it's over 25. Anybody can do it.

It's the ones that aren't already pre-approved that suck, and we sure ain't talking about those.

Yeah uhuh...as I said...you obviously dont know too much about importation.

But, obviously you are 'deeply concerned' with nonsense you perceive as 'fraud'...so you will want to get busy contacting the authorities about cars like this....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mini-Classic-Mini-Mk-VII-CLASSIC-MINI-COOPER-Mk-VII-SPORT-PACK-A-C-EDITION-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3cb547db64QQitemZ260739423076QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

So if I don't know anything about it how the heck did I get the car in? Magic? Did you not read the NHSTA links? Over 25 = 1 page and done. Under 25 and on the list = go through an importer (or if Canadian go through a DMV) and done.

And again, I don't give a squat on the Mini's. In reality, if a registered importer actually went through the motions of legalizing the car for the US, they would all be legal fairly quickly and pain-free, but that community doesn't seem interested. Fine by me, as I see their point (a 2000 Mini is pretty much a 1960).

I don't care about that car or any other. I care that a person on here has publically proclaimed that they are going to ignore the law on the easiest car to import (over 25) simply out of spite or ignorance and will do so by illegally swapping VIN's. If he wanted to get the Michigan kit car that would be fine (it would get a new VIN from Michigan and is quite legal). Why is that so hard to understand?

What I do understand is that you really dont know diddly crap about vehicle importation. Thats all I really need to know. :-)

That and you need to quit your job (if you have one) and get busy being a snitch. You will need to rent office space and hire plenty of help because there are many many cars in the USA that dont belong here or have fudged paperwork and people need someone like you to be their conscience and protector. snicker

Sidebar...

Those flares on the 1974/1998 Mineon make me wobbly.

Wow, okay, apparently I'm conversing with a 3 year old. You still haven't told me what was wrong with what I've stated. Is it harder than 1-page to import a 25+ year old car? Is it hard to import a car on the list? Did I provide any misinformation in any of those posts? What part of that was false (or diddly crap as you want to put it).

And I have a job and I don't care about the "snicker" Mini's and other crap. I'm not going to go out and look for them, but if someone drops one on my desk I'll certainly do something about it, if I have the proof (which in that eBay link you gave I would not). If you see a kid shoplifting do you not yell at him? That doesn't mean you're going to sit inside a 7-11 all day and eyeball kids in hoodies if you do.

John Brown wrote: Sidebar... Those flares on the 1974/1998 Mineon make me wobbly.

:) Hehe...Sportspack. 1300 cc of fuel injected fury.

Javelin wrote: = And I have a job and I don't care about the "snicker" Mini's and other crap. I'm not going to go out and look for them, but if someone drops one on my desk I'll certainly do something about it, if I have the proof (which in that eBay link you gave I would not).

I just dropped one 'illegal' car on your desk...and you dont care??? Nor do you care about any 'illegal' or fudged paper work Minis??? Or other makes? Or perhaps you really dont understand what makes a vehicle technically legal??? If you did the Mini in question wouldnt be a mystery to you. You really only care about the Falcon XB in question?? Nothing else??? Does your vehicular 'morality' conveniently come and go?? LOL

I hope not because there are so many innocent people that need your help!!. haha...

metalman wrote:

Javelin wrote: = And I have a job and I don't care about the "snicker" Mini's and other crap. I'm not going to go out and look for them, but if someone drops one on my desk I'll certainly do something about it, if I have the proof (which in that eBay link you gave I would not).

I just dropped one 'illegal' car on your desk...and you dont care??? Nor do you care about any 'illegal' or fudged paper work Minis??? Or other makes? Or perhaps you really dont understand what makes a vehicle technically legal??? If you did the Mini in question wouldnt be a mystery to you. You really only care about the Falcon XB in question?? Nothing else??? Does your vehicular 'morality' conveniently come and go?? LOL I hope not because there are so many innocent people that need your help!!. haha...

Sigh

It's like reasoning with a toddler. I don't have proof of who broke the law on the Mini. It's not the seller, it's not my concern. If the auction said "I PERSONALLY SWAPPED A 1974 MINI VIN ONTO THIS 1998 MINI" then there's something to go on. It's not that it's more or less wrong, there's nothing I can do about it.

And yes, I have reported falsified cars on eBay before, and so have others on this board. 30 seconds to send an email to eBay for them to investigate sure doesn't take much time.

Ohh so within your limited powers of mind possession of an illegal vehicle or a vehicle thats been re-vin-ed isnt illegal??? Isnt that also a violation of law?? Wonder if the gub'ment agrees?? So your morality DOES come and go. How convenient for you.

Here I thought you were a real hardcore snitch. But youre just a part time blowhard one...but then only when its convenient.

Wow, just wow.

Great!!! Given your obvious dedication to these issues...perhaps I'll buy the XB, re-vin it as a 72 Plymouth, or Torino, or Studebaker, or whatever VIN I can find laying around or I can find....and then sell it at cost to another interested party on here.....all unbeknown to you of course....that way you wont be required to snitch on them. Your conscience will be clear!!!! The earth wont need your saving.

Like I said before...obsession isnt always rational. Nor is it consistent. You are a case study in this.