Vintage79
Vintage79 None
11/19/13 10:43 a.m.

Planning improvements to my tow rig, '88 Ford 460 crew cab dually hauling 18,500 lb max combined weight to races. Plan cam change, other items but am seeking advice or info regarding use of stock EFI with an aftermarket dual plane manifold like Edelbrock Performer, for instance. Edelbrock doesn't sell one set up for post-'87 EFI engines. Haven't found another source, and don't know if that manifold can be readily adapted to work with stock throttle body and injection setup. Advice or leads would be appreciated. Stock EFI manifold said to be very restrictive intake system. Have Dale Banks Powerpack cold air intake and stainless headers with 3" exhaust, so would like to have improved intake manifold to go with conservative RV cam to improve towing economy and torque in 2500-3400 RPM range (have 4.10 gears and C6 automatic).

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory Dork
11/19/13 10:54 a.m.

http://m.ford-trucks.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=28&styleid=19

I would NEVER want to steer you away from here but I know a couple guys on this forum that are really educated on the ins and outs of this EFI.

But more than likely, the guys here will help you. This place is amazing that way!

81cpcamaro
81cpcamaro HalfDork
11/19/13 10:59 a.m.

I didn't realize Ford changed the 460 in '88, now I do. A couple ideas I have, 1. Can you change the heads to a pre-87 style, that would open up some options (or swap an earlier engine)? 2. A supercharger would go a long ways in helping in the towing department, either an Eaton or Magnacharger style or a centrifugal style like a Vortec. That probably would give you the most bang for the buck and should work with the existing intake you have. My $0.02 worth.

Vintage79
Vintage79 New Reader
11/20/13 5:32 a.m.

Thanks for thoughts. For now have good engine, tows 500-700 miles before needing quart of oil and pulls like a train; just horrible fuel econ! Any thoughts out there on adapting Edelbrock performer with EFI fuel rails, injectors?? Have thorough personal shop capabilities and willing to spend a bit for someone to do what I can't. Not seeking more power primarily; priority is brake specific fuel consumption in that 25-3400 rpm range at around 8 to 10 in. manifold vacuum. Torque peak at or just below that range should be best.

aussiesmg
aussiesmg MegaDork
11/20/13 5:51 a.m.

I will follow this with much interest, my 429 efi F700 has issues with both economy and heads "crumbling"

 photo 2013-07-18_19-02-35_118_zps333b2558.jpg

solfly
solfly New Reader
11/20/13 6:25 a.m.

may want to look into an aftermarket add on efi system. a friend put the performance products kit on his 72 camaro and has been very happy with it. should bolt up to any square bore intake

tuna55
tuna55 PowerDork
11/20/13 7:02 a.m.

I know I had my hands on an aluminum EFI 460 intake for a time. I also believe they make an adapter to get you to/fro efi/carb.

81cpcamaro
81cpcamaro HalfDork
11/20/13 7:18 a.m.
Vintage79 wrote: Thanks for thoughts. For now have good engine, tows 500-700 miles before needing quart of oil and pulls like a train; just horrible fuel econ!

So what is the problem? Big Blocks (Chevy, Dodge or Ford, doesn't matter) do tow well but none have been accused of getting good mpg. It just isn't in their nature. But I don't blame you for trying to improve it. Heck even 0.5 mpg increase can save you money.

Keeping the rpms down will help, so an overdrive trans or add on like Gear Vendors would help in the mpg department quite a bit.

Vintage79
Vintage79 New Reader
11/21/13 11:02 a.m.

In reply to tuna55: Thanks. Was that the Edelbrock "Victor" EFI manifold? That's a race manifold, unfortunately. If something else useful for towing RPMs please reply!

tuna55
tuna55 PowerDork
11/21/13 11:36 a.m.
Vintage79 wrote: In reply to tuna55: Thanks. Was that the Edelbrock "Victor" EFI manifold? That's a race manifold, unfortunately. If something else useful for towing RPMs please reply!

Nope, it would be great for you, it was a dual plane Ford OEM unit. I don't have the casting number handy, but I will look more.

The EFI intakes have a different port location, so you can't just throw a carb intake and an adapter for the injector body, it physically won't bolt to the heads.

tuna55
tuna55 PowerDork
11/21/13 11:37 a.m.
tuna55 wrote:
Vintage79 wrote: In reply to tuna55: Thanks. Was that the Edelbrock "Victor" EFI manifold? That's a race manifold, unfortunately. If something else useful for towing RPMs please reply!

Nope, it would be great for you, it was a dual plane Ford OEM unit. I don't have the casting number handy, but I will look more.

The EFI intakes have a different port location, so you can't just throw a carb intake and an adapter for the injector body, it physically won't bolt to the heads.

Here it is:

RF-E8TE-9K461-DA

From an ad, on GRM, where I first tried to sell it.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/200x-classifieds/ford-intake-bbf-460-429/45919/page1/

Vintage79
Vintage79 New Reader
11/22/13 12:00 p.m.

In reply to tuna55: Tuna55: Thanks. Now worth a search! Hope to report on project here.

tuna55
tuna55 PowerDork
11/22/13 12:05 p.m.
Vintage79 wrote: In reply to tuna55: Tuna55: Thanks. Now worth a search! Hope to report on project here.

Two on ebay right now

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-460-7-5L-ENGINE-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-RF-E8TE-9K461-DA-E-5-F20991-/190787754855?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c6bd61b67&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-460-7-5L-ENGINE-INTAKE-MANIFOLD-RF-E7TE-9K461-B6G-D-3-F24535-/190915235939?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c736f5063&vxp=mtr

Vintage79
Vintage79 New Reader
11/28/13 11:26 a.m.

Tuna 55 and others: Have learned need 94 and later block and heads for different intake port location, and then the block for 94 pistons to match those heads, in order to use the factory dual plane intake. Still working on the details, but if some of you have knowledge about how to put this together your comments will be received gratefully. I'm thinking at the moment that getting a rebuilt '94 460 EFI long block and putting the best hydraulic lifter RV cam in it for my towing RPM range, the EFI throttle body/injectors, dual plane intake and Banks exhaust system is the likely plan. Have begun talking with Iskenderian; Ron I. there has apparently done a few nice, mild 460 builds that may meet my kind of need. Again, comments from this knowledgeable group welcome! Don

Vintage79
Vintage79 New Reader
12/25/13 4:07 p.m.

To All: Update on likely plan. Scott Johnston, aka The Mad Porter, in Tacoma WA has a package of modifications suited to my needs. From his emails: Budget ported heads with 2.11" / 1.65" s/s valves, manganese bronze guides, 3 angle valve job, pc seals, upgraded single spring package decked as needed (i.e. mill heads for about 0.5 increase in compression, to about 9:1). Assembled heads ready for install. $1,345.95 Exchange. Custom flat tappet hydraulic cam grind and notched Johnson/Hygrade lifters for $227. Port-matched stock EFI intake $200 exchange. For my towing situation and rpm range, expected MPG gain about 1 to 1.5 mpg, which seems reasonable from my other research; very useful when you're starting at 6 to 6.5 MPG! I also will likely add the "universal" distributor-ignition version of the J&S "Safeguard" individual cylinder knock detection system (see http://www.jandssafeguard.com/ for details. It builds a spark advance map for each cylinder as it is used in your actual application, to optimize torque/economy without detonation. As I've said to friends this little project is not a financial proposition; it will extend range and reduce the CO2 added to the atmosphere, and it's a fun project on an old truck I've come to love. Expect to do this work this winter, and have some real towing results by late spring/early summer which I'll report on here.

conesare2seconds
conesare2seconds HalfDork
12/26/13 1:59 p.m.

Digging the Gulf livery on your Mustang, btw.

Vigo
Vigo UberDork
12/26/13 6:57 p.m.

I know very little about 460s but the one conclusion i've come to based on the OLD ones ive looked at is that the port size is too damn big for efficient low-rpm operation.

Considering that, i think this kind of mod could be very beneficial and 'shrink' the port at low flows. Good luck finding someone to do it, besides the guy who wrote this article.

http://www.allpar.com/fix/holler/head-porting2.html

Trans_Maro
Trans_Maro UltraDork
12/26/13 9:35 p.m.

I have a factory EFI 460 in my 1991 F-250HD.

I looked at the mods to increase power that were available and found something interesting.

All the "tricks" guys had come up with to increase horsepower added power up top at the expense of low-rpm torque.

Small passages and valves are good at building torque on the low end. You know, where a tow engine operates.

In the end, I left the engine stock and have had no complaints.

The transmission is an E40D and has been built and modified with a B&M towing kit.

Best thing you could probably do would be an RV cam and put a transmission in that has an overdrive to let the engine drop some RPM when cruising on the flats.

noddaz
noddaz Dork
12/28/13 8:13 p.m.

Lots of work you are talking about there. What is keeping you from just going turbo diesel?

Vintage79
Vintage79 New Reader
12/30/13 3:15 p.m.

Interesting comments, all. 1988 EFI heads have extra-restrictive intake ports and valve sizes, compared to other aspects of the "air pump." That's why modest porting of intake side with manifold port-matching, along with up-size of intake valves to diameter similar to 1993-on stock 460s, is recommended by the 460 experts consulted including Scott "The Mad Porter" and a reputable California builder, Paul Kane, I believe. Otherwise leave air/exhaust aspects alone (already have excellent Banks TorqueTube stainless headers). Kane doesn't think much of cam swap, but Scott and I agree modest RV cam and modest compression bump to about 9:1 worth doing (though Paul may be right that it's not as cost effective to do those things as the minor porting/intake valve work.) I'm pretty sure those last things won't hurt economy in towing range 2500+ RPM, and will improve torque for hills, etc. Personal preference. Re: why not turbodiesel? Again, personal preference. Just gotta like the big block gas V8 for sound and old guy hot rodder tradition; what can you say?

noddaz
noddaz Dork
1/2/14 6:55 a.m.
Vintage79 wrote: Re: why not turbodiesel? Again, personal preference. Just gotta like the big block gas V8 for sound and old guy hot rodder tradition; what can you say?

That is a good enough reason. Keep building...

Vigo
Vigo UberDork
1/3/14 1:32 a.m.

I was unaware that there was a 460 with too-small intake ports. I learned something.

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