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KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
3/7/20 10:23 a.m.

In reply to 759NRNG :

Mt Washington has a very on and off history. Recently it has been run every three years.   Why not every year?  It is mostly about the people/company that owns the road.  The auto road is a huge money maker.  Every car that goes up pays a significant fee.  A car and driver is currently $35 and passengers add $10 each.  On a nice summer day there is a line of people waiting to pay to go up.   For us to race they of course have to shutdown the hill which costs them lots of money and invariably makes some of their potential customers extremely unhappy when they find out they cannot drive to the top of the mountain.   

The auto road makes some money back charging for spectators I believe. The do get some publicity which is worth some $$$ but in general they lose money on the event and upset some of their customers.  Also unlike other hillclimbs Mt Washington is a big deal. There are spectators and media and to get the publicity it has to be run as a major professional event.  The means a lot of organization and thus it is a lot of work for a bunch of volunteers.  I'm not sure that SCCNH would even want to do it every year.  With a NEHA hillclimb (Washington is not a NEHA hillclimb) we kind of sneak into town, have an event and sneak out again. We don't really even allow spectators.  So the events are relatively easy to organize and run.

 

 

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
3/15/20 1:03 p.m.

 

Transmission and clutch stuff today.

I pulled the transmission out (I love having a lift and a transmission jack!) and drained the fluid.  The Jerico's insides look fine.

 

Then I spent some time adjusting the shift linkage and shift lever arms.  The linkage hadn't really been quite right since I added the new shifter last season. The problem was I tried to adjust it without pulling the transmission.  I got it close but the neutral position wasn't quite right and I found when I readjusted it this time the shifter stops were not set quite right either.   The aluminium shifter arm on the 3-4 shift was getting loose. probably in part because the stop wasn't adjusted correctly so the arm was taking the full force of shifts at the end of travel.   I hammered on the am to tighten up the slot and forced it back on.  I'm hoping with the stop adjusted correctly it will be OK for now.   I might have to buy some new arms. I got these from Coleman Racing. They are not that expensive. 

 

Once I got the shifting complete it was on to test mounting the new slave cylinder.   It is a tiny very light thing by Howe Racing

https://howeracing.com/index.php/throw-out-bearing-hydraulic-8286.html

 

 

It looks like it will fit fine as long as I use one of my old lines (the one without the shiny fitting).  

 

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
3/15/20 1:17 p.m.

Can you drill a hole in the bell housing and route the bleeder hose straight up?

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
3/15/20 1:21 p.m.

Next I wanted to mount the flywheel. clutch and bellhousing so I could figure out how many shims I need on the new slave cylinder.  But I noticed a problem.

Every ARP flywheel bolt is coming into contact with part of the clutch.  Finally I know what is causing that noise and vibration I have been getting for a long time when using the clutch.   Previously I have had it apart and twice replaced the slave cylinder bearing thinking it was that.  

So I went on to the Quarter Master site (The clutch is a Quarter Master Pro 7.25") to see what they recommended for bolts. The had a set of ARP bolts with a reduced head size which looked to be just what I needed but they wanted almost $50 plus shipping.  They didn't give an ARP number but I hit the ARP site and found what appears to be the correct set and then ordered them on ebay with free shipping for $33.  

 

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
3/15/20 1:25 p.m.
bentwrench said:

Can you drill a hole in the bell housing and route the bleeder hose straight up?

 

Yes but I couldn't get at the line to bleed it that way anyway. I'd have to bend the line down which would end up doing much the same thing.  I'm not worried about it. The old Quarter Master slave cylinder was the same way and it bled fine.

I've found the line for the remote bleed on these internal slaves is really all but mandatory.  You can't easily get at the bleed once it is installed and having a line that you can just drop into a container that stays under the fluid level just makes it easy. Just pump lots of fluid through.  Quarter Master and Howe both sell the remote bleed as an add on kit.  It should just be included.

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
3/15/20 3:26 p.m.
KevinGale said:

Next I wanted to mount the flywheel. clutch and bellhousing so I could figure out how many shims I need on the new slave cylinder.  But I noticed a problem.

Every ARP flywheel bolt is coming into contact with part of the clutch. 

The center of some clutch discs is offset and the damper stuff in the center can hit the flywheel if the disc is inverted.

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
3/15/20 4:03 p.m.

I assembled things and measured the clearance between the slave cylinder bearing and the clutch fingers.  (Much easier to do this outside the car)

Right now I am going with two shims which combined with the base shim plate should give me just over 0.100" clearance.  The target Howe gives is 0.125" but the shims they give to accomplish this in their shim kit shim the unit by 0.065" which is more than half of the target.  So unless you get lucky you can be off by half a shim. I have to assume they think that is OK but it would have been nice if they said so and to give an idea if I should err on the high side or the low side.. In my case I could be at 0.110 or 0.177 by my measurements.  0.110" is a lot closer to 0.125" than 0.177" so I opted for a bit tighter.  I hope that won't be a problem.  

Important update to those numbers. I forgot the rear motor plate. That adds about 0.265".  So that means adding 4 more shims which in theory adds  0.26". So with 6 shims my gap should be about 0.115"  

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
3/16/20 8:45 a.m.
bentwrench said:
 

The center of some clutch discs is offset and the damper stuff in the center can hit the flywheel if the disc is inverted.

 

I'll double check that.   It's not hitting flywheel. The clutch plate has a center metal section that is just touching the head of the bolts (which still leaves a lot of clearance to the flywheel).  These ARP bolts have a huge head and the other bolts I am getting and are shown on the Quartermaster site are a much smaller head design.  So my guess is these bolts are just not compatible with my clutch.  

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
3/16/20 9:01 a.m.
KevinGale said:
bentwrench said:
 

The center of some clutch discs is offset and the damper stuff in the center can hit the flywheel if the disc is inverted.

 

I'll double check that.   It's not hitting flywheel. The clutch plate has a center metal section that is just touching the head of the bolts (which still leaves a lot of clearance to the flywheel).  These ARP bolts have a huge head and the other bolts I am getting and are shown on the Quartermaster site are a much smaller head design.  So my guess is these bolts are just not compatible with my clutch.  

I found the diagram of the clutch.  It's not clear if the center is offset but it does show a specific setup. I'll have to check that tonight.

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
3/16/20 11:28 a.m.

Must have been hitting on the inside of the bolt circle?

I was not considering the triple disc angle.

The first disc has to be offset towards the flywheel to leave room for the center disc.

The flywheel is stepped to make room for this. Has the flywheel been resurfaced?

Check for a difference between the centers on the front and rear disc to be sure they are not swapped.

Do the instructions mention anything about clearance concerns?

I think it is normal for the floaters to jangle when the clutch is released. 

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
3/16/20 4:38 p.m.

In reply to bentwrench :

The flywheel hasn't been changed. The only clearance issue still appears to have been caused by the large head ARP bolts.  So I'm pretty sure that swapping to the small head bolts I have on order will fix the issue.  

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
3/25/20 8:04 p.m.

Turns out that the Quarter Master 505001 bolt kit (which are ARP bolts) is the correct kit.  Installed those tonight and all the clearance issues are gone.

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
3/26/20 8:25 a.m.

I was on the SCCNH website trying to see if they had posted anything about spring Ascutney being canceled (nothing yet). When I saw this nice photo of my car on their site.

Edward Frederick-Bittner
Edward Frederick-Bittner None
4/1/20 4:38 a.m.

Thanks for the thread! Just went through the whole thing. I had been doing a bunch of research for road course racing a modified and couldn't really find much and then I found this and it's even better!

I've got a BMW 330ci I do track day instructing with and I'm highly considering selling it and grabbing a modified roller and then swapping in the M54 engine+electronics and trans from another 330 since I've already got a plethora of spares, they are pretty cheap, and popular/reliable on track. That would also place me perfectly (after enclosing the wheels) in the pretty popular racing class with NASA-MA ST3. Based on some guesstimates I think (with some aero work) it would be very competitive too! I have iracing and I made a modified setup for road courses and I couldn't believe how nice it is to drive! The stopping power is unreal! Only annoying thing is the lack of right hand visibility with the model they have in the sim.

I've got a few questions if you wouldn't mind answering...

What's the lifespan like on a set of tires? I couldn't believe how cheap they are compared to Hoosier R7s! Everything (minus engine and trans) seems so cheap! And that's coming from someone who has a car basically built from the junkyard lol.

What is the overall height of your engine? A complete M54 is around 25 inches and it looks like yours is about the same? Right side visibility on your car looks like it'd be way better than most modifieds I've seen!

I think there was a few other questions I had I've since forgetton. I might ask a few more things once I remember if you don't mind!

If there wasn't a global pandemic going on and I had a bit more money to spare I'd be driving to Arizona right now to get this: https://www.racingjunk.com/Modifieds/184003157/Turn-Key-Modified.html?category_id=76&np_offset=12 $4000 for a ready to race modified!

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
4/2/20 1:14 a.m.

In reply to Edward Frederick-Bittner :

Part of the reason that one is priced where it is is the lack of a quick change, lack of racing hubs with racing rims., a less developed motor, only a 2 speed transmission instead of 4. Proper racing brakes, etc. 

A quick change is a really big deal.  Unless you drive the same track all the time you are handicapping yourself intensely.  Same with the rest of it. 

Edward Frederick-Bittner
Edward Frederick-Bittner New Reader
4/2/20 9:25 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Yeah that makes sense. It still seems like a lot of performance for the money! There are also rollers that (to my untrained eye) look like they'd be pretty damn good for ~4k too (I'm gonna be open to offers on my car throughout the year and should be able to get at least $6000 for it). And I have spare engines and trans' laying around. The SK Modified in iRacing (2 speed 350 hp) runs within a second of, and sometimes faster than depending on how top speed based the track is, a Porsche 718 GT4 clubsport despite costing about 1/15th the price. It's easier to drive than the Porsche too... And running (and repair) costs would also be a fraction from any production based car of similar performance. Especially those tires! I certainly have a lot to learn about modifieds (seems like some of the latemodel chassis could be a good option too). It seems like there are a couple of different suspension setups on the cars for sale. And they very rarely have a coilover setup that would be easy to adjust for road racing. But control arms and whatnot aren't to expensive and I'm confident enough in my manufacturing skills to swap setups. Are there any good specific resources you know of that talk about the different (mainly rear) suspension setups? I could only really find scattered dirt modified info... I guess it isn't too much different?

I don't think a quick change for me would be a necessity. It would be nice to have but the courses I go to require very similar gearing. And, unless I'm missing something, it looks like a limited slip is way more expensive for a quick change rear end.

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
4/2/20 11:18 a.m.
Edward Frederick-Bittner said:

I've got a few questions if you wouldn't mind answering...

What's the lifespan like on a set of tires? I couldn't believe how cheap they are compared to Hoosier R7s! Everything (minus engine and trans) seems so cheap! And that's coming from someone who has a car basically built from the junkyard lol.

I can get a whole hillclimb season from a set of tires.  Actually more they don't actually wear down to cord until about two seasons. Of course hillclimbs are not that hard on tires. We are only running hard for minutes on each run and even on an average weekend including fam runs it is still often less than 10 time up the hill.  My problem is more heat cycles.  I tend to replace the tires once per season because they start to have less grip as they harden from heat cycles.  But they don't fall off much. 

What is the overall height of your engine? A complete M54 is around 25 inches and it looks like yours is about the same? Right side visibility on your car looks like it'd be way better than most modifieds I've seen!

In terms of inches I'm not sure.  The car is partially disassembled right now so I can't really measure.  In terms of visibility.  My engine is mounted in the standard location for a dry sump. That places the bottom of the dry sump pan just above the frame rails which are in my case 3.75" off the ground. I often see two issues with visibility. 1) Someone is running a wet sump and thus raised the engine four or more inches.  2) They just have a tall air cleaner setup.

I'm running a drop base air cleaner and a low profile filter element so I can see over it.  This may impact airflow but to compensate I am now usually running one of those air cleaner tops that doubles as a filter. K&N makes one. With that I can have a low profile but air can have a straight shot into the carb.  At least in theory, it's not like I have done dyno tests simulating airflow at speed or anything.  I'd just rather see where I am going, even if it might give up a couple horsepower.

Here is an example.  Art's air filter setup just sticks way up and he has also enclosed it with sheet metal.  He says the visibility issue doesn't bother him.  

I guess you could estimate the engine height from the picture. The front tires are 26" in diameter.  The top of the intake for the engine is a few inches below the hood where the air filter is peeking up.

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
4/2/20 4:18 p.m.

For as long as I have raced this car I have had this problem.  (Notice the bend in the clevis)

I'm not entirely sure when it bends. My main theory is it happens on bumpy Mt Ascutney which is usually the culprit in any bent or broken suspension components.   I've tried buying a couple types of clevis joints but they all bend.  I mention this to Paul Tinguad.  Paul has opened a shop Supercar Machine Shop and decided to help me out. This is what he made.

 You can see the new clevis is much more robust than the original below.  We will see how these hold up.

 

Here they are on the car

 

frenchyd
frenchyd PowerDork
4/2/20 5:03 p.m.

In reply to Edward Frederick-Bittner :

Dirt Circle track guys tend to go to one track yet a quick change is a big advantage.  Wet track, dry track etc. plus they can run different stagger or even different diameter tires depending on air density and other tuning considerations. 
Road racing the same things affect gear ratio's clean track, dirty track. Tuning, air density, and we run in the rain.   
When you combine that with a transmission that is set up for quick gear ratio changes. You can offset a lot of horsepower.  
The feeling of gearing just right for a corner that can be critical for lap times is so sweet.  My little Jaguar motor only made about 300 horsepower. (258 inches compared to 400+ inch Chevy small blocks )  with 2nd and third really close together I could be even at the apex and pull them by more than a car length Before braking for the next corner. That's because They would exit that corner below their peak power. 
I could use two gears and because they were dog ring gears make the shift without the time it takes for syncros   ( no clutch ) To slow down the gear to engage.  Dog ring shift is a tiny fraction of a second versus almost a full second when syncros are used. If you give up almost a second in one short straight it's pretty hard to get that back. Even with more peak power. 

759NRNG
759NRNG UltraDork
4/2/20 6:18 p.m.
KevinGale said:

I was on the SCCNH website trying to see if they had posted anything about spring Ascutney being canceled (nothing yet). When I saw this nice photo of my car on their site.

I'll take an XL sleeved jersey (wink).......and anytime frenchyD chimes in it's all good even if he jacks your thread....wink

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
4/3/20 6:30 a.m.
759NRNG said

I'll take an XL sleeved jersey (wink).......and anytime frenchyD chimes in it's all good even if he jacks your thread....wink

 He can jack my thread like that any time. :-)

Bent-Valve
Bent-Valve HalfDork
4/3/20 6:39 a.m.
KevinGale said:

I was on the SCCNH website trying to see if they had posted anything about spring Ascutney being canceled (nothing yet). When I saw this nice photo of my car on their site.

Being a very amateur photographer I'm curious how they got this pic. I just started flying a fpv drone as well. Combined they might get this shot (Cool pic btw) but it would be tough.

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
4/3/20 8:06 a.m.
Bent-Valve said:

Being a very amateur photographer I'm curious how they got this pic. I just started flying a fpv drone as well. Combined they might get this shot (Cool pic btw) but it would be tough.

 

I hadn't really thought about it.  Looking at it I have a guess.  My guess is this is a picture taken from checkpoint 5 at Mt Ascutney and the car is actually going down the hill. So it was taken on a bring down not while racing.   Check 5 is up on a ledge so this is the perspective you would get.

KevinGale
KevinGale HalfDork
4/3/20 8:13 a.m.

Mt Philo actually has a place where someone could zoom in and get a picture of a car racing from almost directly above the car.   Although I'm not sure I would recommend it without a safety harness.  The fall would probably kill you and if that didn't you might get run over by the race car coming up at speed. 

eddyfb
eddyfb New Reader
4/3/20 12:04 p.m.

In reply to KevinGale :

Ah nice! That sounds about equal to what I'd expect out of an R7 and the circle track hoosiers (and american even more) are much cheaper! Awesome!

Yeah that's the picture I made my guesstimates from. It might not bother him but it would probably be really nice to be able to see the apex he's aiming for haha. If you know the course extremely well it probably isn't too bad, but when I'm driving in iRacing for most right hand turns the apex isn't visible from a good bit before turn in until I'm past it. Makes it a lot more difficult to get a really good line. (@15s here for example I can never even see the apex https://youtu.be/q_R4ZglShkg?t=15 )

In reply to frenchyd :

Yeah more good points! I will definitely take it into consideration more! I have never had that feeling of properly putting power down out of a corner lol. If I ever get a decent exit I just get a lot of spinning from my inside rear tire spinning with my stupid open diff. A little miata (yes that's a miata in the video haha) pulls on me while my dang right rear just spins (@ 13:45 in case the link doesn't work right) https://youtu.be/bU5piGlsyYs?t=825 (Didn't pass him because of yellow flags for a flipped over 370z)

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