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Samebutdifferent
Samebutdifferent New Reader
9/4/19 9:29 a.m.

Research is really just a way of locating evidence and gathering third party validation which supports not doing something...

Syscrush
Syscrush New Reader
9/5/19 8:27 a.m.
mke said:

I was just reading a race engine can dump 1,000,000BTUs into the dyno room at full song

The rule of thumb that my grade 9 shop teacher told us was that of the energy in the gas, about 1/3 of it goes straight out the exhaust, 1/3 is dissipated as heat (by the cooling system and radiated from the engine itself), and the remaining 1/3 is converted to useful work at the crank.

So, 700 hp engine = 700 hp heater.

700 hp x 746 W/hp = 522.2 kW heater.

mke
mke HalfDork
9/5/19 9:17 a.m.

In reply to Syscrush :

That sounds about right....because running the engine inside hooked to a dyno 100% of the energy is heat in the shop that needs to be removed.  And I guess that is about 1.7M BTU/hr...as Paris says, that hot....wait that's Nichole saying it.

I've been looking a bit at noise control  which is where I saw the heat numbers.  One thought is "the solution to pollution is dilution" and just running a big fan that pulls out all the exhaust fumes and keeps the place anything like ambient temp will drop the noise significantly due to the added air mass and with damping in the duct work you kind dof get there.  I also read that the hard surface in the shop will make running in the shop about 10dB LOUDER than running outside (right near the engine) which then also needs to be controlled.

 

 

 

 

mke
mke HalfDork
9/5/19 1:08 p.m.

Ferrari buddy talked me into hunting down a set of total seal gapless 2nd rings.  I had those in the 308 engine but didn't think of it on the V12....sent a quote request to total seal. They gave me the part number for the fullset, jegs had the best price I could find for that part number, at $35.58 per cylinder in sets of 4 so new rings ordered.  Now To see if I can return what JE send me and get that $259 back so Lana isn't AS angry.  

Edit: and now that I ordered the set, Total seal got back to me that they could convent the JE 2nd rings for $130 for 12 ....which would bit a little cheaper than the buy and return path, but I know total seal makes good rings and honestly have no idea what JE sent me so I probably did the right thing.

 

I also got talked into trying the total seal Seal seat ring lube.

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle SuperDork
9/5/19 8:58 p.m.

What the latest on the wheels?

mke
mke HalfDork
9/6/19 7:35 a.m.
OHSCrifle said:

What the latest on the wheels?

They are at sea.  They left china 8/14 and its 25-30 days to US port...so next week sometime I should get a message from UPS telling me the package status changed and is in UPS hands and enroute which will take another week.  I should have them about 9/18 I guess? 

Started on the cylinder last night by rough sawing to length.  Now, the saw blade was total sh!t, had to change it to a less sh!t one...time to buy new blades but I got it cut.  When to the lathe and found that I no longer own a single dial indicator or base or anything else that frikin works and has all its parts....time to by new indicators.....I haven't working in a machineshop since ...1995? so all my stuff is that vintage I think and all about dead and I could not proceed...time to shop.

mke
mke HalfDork
9/6/19 10:48 a.m.
Samebutdifferent said:

Research is really just a way of locating evidence and gathering third party validation which supports not doing something...

Which got me thinking on my long drive home from work yesterday that the total seal people say not to let an engine with new rings idle, highway driving for 2000-3000 miles is best or a night of racing is ok, I think I have that right. That gets me pretty quickly to run it in on the dyno as I work on lower power tuning which gets me to the dyno needs to be working not parked in storage upstairs…..dyno working means pumps and noise and, and , and…….but wait. I have 4 mufflers, 2 loud, 2 quieter for normal driving that are rated to 250-300hp. The dyno needs about 1 gal/20hp, max load is 1gal/10hp but general use 1:20 is good and a hose has to flow 5gal/min, maybe 10….so 100-200hp worth….so I just need to get it on the engine (once there is an engine), hook a garden hose to the valve it came with and I can do a proper bench break-in without a whole lot more.

The other piece I got thinking about was flow rates and pressure. The dyno has a 1” feed hose…..100gpm is not going through that hose and valve, I said that before. The stuska 1200hp uses 2 1” hoses and their old literature talks about 35psi…..35 is a single spa pump like I’m told most people use on their dynos. The old gopower stuff talks about 20-30psi. The single rotor gets 500hp from that, almost what the single stuska gets…..hmmmm.….I’m pretty sure if I just unscrew the 1” quick connect fitting, grind out the threads and fit an o-ring seals manifold I can come up with a way to get 1.25” or maybe 1.5” or maybe a pair of 1 or 1.25 hoses for to keep it more flexible and a simple spa pump should be ok. The higher pressures have got to be about getting water though small feed hoses.

Water supply. With break-in type loads a cheap 275 gal farm tank is which is about an hour of engine run before its too hot and about a 3 min full power pull which seems like a very long time….1 minute seems like a very long pull, about 500rpm/sec is normal I think so 2000-9500 is 15 sec and the farm tank is good for a dozen pulls, more really because there will be tuning time between pulls. 275 or so seems like a big enough tank. Build a platform for it so the return pump and spa pump sit under the tank and I lose just a 3x3 spot in the corner. This seems like a plan and if I need more than 10 pulls I can drain and refill the tank with cold water from the garden hose in about an hours so way bother with anything more? I was being stupid.

With the dyno up and working for at least low power stuff I’ll WAY better understand noise levels and what needs to be done. Another argument to just hook it up.

Last, gopower does not have an adapter for my clutch spline…I’ll need to make that L….wait….a thought is coming as I type……I have 2 adapters that came with the dyno and I have a flywheel that takes a 7.25” clutch, ebay might have a clutch that fits my flywheel and one of my adapters if I look.

Syscrush
Syscrush New Reader
9/6/19 11:37 a.m.

You know more than I do, but this makes perfect sense to me, and I abide by it with new or rebuilt motors. Sorry about the Geocities-like page, but let's try to focus on the content.

Break-in procedure & reasoning.

mke
mke HalfDork
9/6/19 11:40 a.m.

I think I have a GM 1 1/8" 10 spline adapter with my dyno, this trans adapter bolted to an alum disc that bolts to my flywheel might be the cheapest easiest way to connect the dyno

Trans adapter

mke
mke HalfDork
9/6/19 12:28 p.m.
Syscrush said:

You know more than I do, but this makes perfect sense to me, and I abide by it with new or rebuilt motors. Sorry about the Geocities-like page, but let's try to focus on the content.

Break-in procedure & reasoning.

Most of what I think I know is really just stuff I heard and assumed was true so don't ever go by anything I say :)

For sure there is a reason OEMs recommend what they do and I'd bet they have reams of data to support the recommendations.

I think if you tell people something they want to heard they will accept it as true and that applies to just about any subject.  Here saying you don't need to be gentle and spend a couple weeks breaking in your engine, you need 9 dyno pulls and you're good to G0!  That's WAY easier and cheaper if I'm paying to dyno time then I can get right on to tuning or right on to racing if its track time I'm buying.  I'd love for that to be true....but Im pretty sure its BS.  if there is anything that's not perfect anywhere in the engine you'll scuff and grind it with this method, I'm certain of that.

I've seen hp numbers come up over the course of 3000 miles or multiple race weekends...a buddy used to build H-D engines for street/race and we talked about the results and meaning may times.  You can for sure get an engine to never break in right by being too gentle for too long (as total seal warns against) but you can also do a lot of damage by being too aggressive too fast. 

I read an article years ago the seemed well reasoned /researched that talked about load and recovery periods....the same idea as the quick breaki-in but over 500-1000 miles.  Keep the rpm down (which generates the majority of the load on most internal parts) but do a program of load then recovery to give anything you knocked lose a chance to be flushed out, then higher load, up to full throttle, then up the rpm by 500 and repeat until you've done the entire rpm and load range.  this is what I think is the best way to do a break-in.....but that could just be that it made sense so I want to believe it's best.

Another bubby (well father of H-d buddy) bored his race bike out until he was into the fins.  Then a sleeve and ready to race.  He won, i think , the class.  Over winter a quick tear down to re-ring it found the cylinder out of round by .020"....it was running great, very little leak-down....but .020" out of round.  They re-bored round, new piston broke it in carefully again, made great power but they just wanted to see and popped a head off mid-season....cylinder out of round by .020".  This time the head went back on and they let it be until the lead-down number were softening after 2-3 season....I thing I have the story right.  My point is the engine would have seized with a quick hard break-in but it was no issue at all with a more normal and more gentle break-in that lets parts wear to fit each other and recovery periods to flush out the debris.

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
9/6/19 12:30 p.m.
Syscrush said:

You know more than I do, but this makes perfect sense to me, and I abide by it with new or rebuilt motors. Sorry about the Geocities-like page, but let's try to focus on the content.

Break-in procedure & reasoning.

I have been doing break in this way for years with positive results.

Avoid high load low speed operation to insure lots of oil, but keep revs below red line.

You want to load the motor to full torque but not stress it by wringing it out.

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
9/6/19 1:18 p.m.
mke said:
Another bubby (well father of H-d buddy) bored his race bike out until he was into the fins.  Then a sleeve and ready to race.  He won, i think , the class.  Over winter a quick tear down to re-ring it found the cylinder out of round by .020"....it was running great, very little leak-down....but .020" out of round.  They re-bored round, new piston broke it in carefully again, made great power but they just wanted to see and popped a head off mid-season....cylinder out of round by .020".  This time the head went back on and they let it be until the lead-down number were softening after 2-3 season....I thing I have the story right.  My point is the engine would have seized with a quick hard break-in but it was no issue at all with a more normal and more gentle break-in that lets parts wear to fit each other and recovery periods to flush out the debris.

This is not relevant to break in as it is totally experimental motor thus has no bearing on a normal break in.

Also Drag motors are not built anything like a street motor and are usually run cold (cool) for instance, with much larger clearances.

Cylinders going out of round is why I hone with a Torque Plate, especially HD (even the iron cylinders).

mke
mke HalfDork
9/6/19 1:49 p.m.
bentwrench said:

This is not relevant to break in as it is totally experimental motor thus has no bearing on a normal break in.

Also Drag motors are not built anything like a street motor and are usually run cold (cool) for instance, with much larger clearances.

Cylinders going out of round is why I hone with a Torque Plate, especially HD (even the iron cylinders).

I guess it depends what you're breaking in.  If its a simple re-ring and you just need to mostly get them seated thats at 1 end of the scale and hurrying it up most likely won't do any harm.  If its a totally experimental thing, like say the frankenferrari, that's probably at the other end of the scale and I'd be shocked it things didn't move with time/heat/cycles so caution has value I'd think.  What normal is depends I guess.

The engine in the story was bored/hones with torque plates and had round within a tenth or 2 cylinders on assembly, very not round after multiple heat cycles and was a steet/strip bike so pretty standard tolerances on assembly. It happens.

 

mke
mke HalfDork
9/7/19 4:10 p.m.

I think I put plenty on it.  Let it cool then off to the mill.

mke
mke HalfDork
9/8/19 5:28 p.m.

The mill has been stilling for 3  years, never used since the fire and needed a lot of cleanup, and re indicate everything straight after the move so that killed a couple hours.

0.010" off the deck and it will pass for flat again....there is always a burning line around the weld and usually a bit of sinking...that is what the 010 cleaned up.  Chamber next

Norma66-Brent
Norma66-Brent Reader
9/8/19 7:43 p.m.

Will you compensate for the decking with thicker head gaskets? Or is there another plan?

mke
mke HalfDork
9/8/19 8:46 p.m.
Norma66-Brent said:

Will you compensate for the decking with thicker head gaskets? Or is there another plan?

The other plan is a little more compression :)

The stock ferrari cam sprockets are adjustable so no issue with timing or anything else I can think of....I'll have to cut the other head to match is all I guess.

mke
mke HalfDork
9/8/19 8:58 p.m.

Curved surfaces on a manual mill are slow going, a lit of point to find and tranfer.  I got the profile cut and the center is down to finish depth but still a ways to go.

The way I decided to do it I pick up the plug location in the cylinder next door.

Then I moved 1/2 to the damaged cylinder.

Then I go 1mm deep in the good chamber, touch both sides (x direction) then move to the damaged chamber, change the sign and reverse the numbers and cut.  Move 2mm in the y and repeat....then repeat some more...once I have it roughed and the seats in and cut, I'll clean it up with the die grinder and get it cc matched, but it should be just light cleanup.

Syscrush
Syscrush New Reader
9/9/19 8:35 a.m.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UberDork
9/9/19 9:37 a.m.

Damn.  This is pretty epic.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
9/9/19 10:02 a.m.

I would like to sign up for your TIG welding classes.

 

Pete

mke
mke HalfDork
9/9/19 10:29 a.m.

Yeah...normally you just throw out a head that looks the way this did because a new one is a couple hundred $ and repairing it would cost a couple thousand $ making it a no brainer.  Its not that it can't be fixed, it just that doing it is usually a stupid waste of money  and time....but this head is not normal so it needs to be fixed.

In other news I confirmed the 2 trans shafts that came  with my dyno are  GM and Ford so  I ordered the trans shaft adapter from speedway.  I'll also need a GM bellhousing then I think I can bolt the dyno on....think.  I'm really leaning to the change NOTHING on the dyno and just connect a garden hose so I know nothing weird should happen during break-in.  100-200 hp load should be plenty to seat the rings and I don't need to spend money or much time before I see the dyno working right.  I think this is the plan.

Also, the wheels on at a UPS facility in Ontario, CA and the tracking number live.  No estimated delivery date yet but they are in country. smiley

Samebutdifferent
Samebutdifferent New Reader
9/9/19 4:38 p.m.

I'm liking this plan...

Excited to see the tires mounted on the new wheels and the refreshed engine on the break in dyno.  However, I'm also excited to see the reassembly process after the unfortunate carnage episode.  Should make for great GRM reading.

mke
mke HalfDork
9/9/19 8:14 p.m.

Slowly.....

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair MegaDork
9/9/19 9:30 p.m.

Wow.  Just wow.

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