FrankenFerrari - V12 Ferrari 308

In reply to mke :

The purpose of the grooves?  Do you have too much oil pressure?  Something not getting oiled? 
I can understand about creative oiling solutions. MG T series factory rods have the oil holes needed to splash the camshafts with lubricant  and tunnel to send oil up to the wrist pin. Aftermarket rods often don't so oil grooves to the rescue. 
Yes it's a little more work for the piston rings to deal with and drain back holes might be required.  
Same thing with the rods on the WW 2 designed Jaguar six cylinder.  With the long stroke (4.17 ) pistons fail with aftermarket rods lacking the oil tunnel.  
On the other hand when Jaguar shortened the stroke to comply with the 3 liter limit they never were able to get another engine to last the 24 hours of LeMans and Ferrari started winning. 

frenchyd said:

In reply to mke :

The purpose of the grooves?  

As I said I didn't even recall cutting them.  This morning I looked a bit closer and it looks like I cut about 1/2 or them and the other 1/2 are original so I dug back through old posts on another forum and sure enough 1 set I bought had them, 1 set didn't so I added to the set that didn't.  The oil grooves were a newer design, not on the 355 or early 360 but on later 360...my assumption is to help prevent the Ti from galling rod to rod.  They made other changes over galling concerns like the 355 rods ues the bolt to align the caps and the pressure honestly often rod to gall against the bolt and produce false torque leading to failed rod bearings.  The 360 rods got a steel sleeve for alignment to solve this at the cost of a couple more grams of steel. 

Long story short 10 have grooves so I need to cut them onto the 2 replacement rods then get the weights all matched up.

So this morning I setup the mill and cut the grooves which went smoothly.

.....until during debuting I noticed they were both were cut on the wrong side.

On the rods I have there are 2 different "pankl" logos and on all 10 it's on the outside of the rod and that is how I setup the new rods, which also are 1 of each logo style.....but on both the new rods the bearing retaining notches are cut opposite the 10 I had putting the log on the inside.....clearly I was looking at the wrong thing when I was setting up. So the new rods now have 6 grooves.

I can't think of any reason the extra grooves on the outside will hurt anything....maybe a little more oil flow on this pair?  Maybe I'll separate then to not be a pair to minimize that?  I think it will be fine... back to balancing I guess.

Grinding rods sucks....I'd forgotten just that.  Looking back it was Oct 2008 when I did it last time.  That 1 rod (new #5) was a quite light rod with a relatively heavy cap so once the cap was matched to the others the rod overall lightest by 2g.  Now, Ferrari matches the sets in 4g groups and there is no end to end spec that I know of so really it was well within spec and good  enough ....but last time I think I matched the total within 0.1 but caps and big ends were only within 2g so WAY out of that spec.  I spent  quite a bit of time balancing everything thinking the whole point of a V12 is to make gobs of power while being freakinshly smooth and that still seems like the right answer.  So far the caps, big ends, small ends are all matching within 1g and the total weight within 0.2g so a little better overall this time I think even thought the totals aren't quite as good I think that is less important.

The new rod 8 was 12g heavy overall, 3g on the caps, 9 on the rod....right now the cap is done and the rod is sitting at 3.5 heavy so another 15-20 minutes to finish it up the 2g each off the last 4....hopefully finished tomorrow.  Still kind of annoyed with myself over the oils grooves...but....

Nice little article there on the vapor barrier. I always thought is was overkill myself but boy did the inspectors have a fit if it wasn't there. My feeling was it was better to have it not penetrate the cement to begin with.  Commercial construction get's it residential is still hit and miss around here. Working on a Lampredi motor as well. It's only 4 cylinders but has the dual overhead cams and even fire timing. There still cheap enough to play with but the way things are going I might get priced out of this as well.

I have a matching set of rods again! Yay!

I couldn't help myself... I had to go back and touch up the heaviest so now the range is 337.74g -337.84g, back to the 0.10g "spec" 

Boring but progress.  I cleaned up the rods, numbered the ones with wrong numbers (way back I bought a set of v8 rods which I used as numbered then filled in with more v8 rods so numbered wrong) , installed the new bearings and torqued.  These are now ready to go to the machine shop whenever things reopen to be measured so the crank can be ground to match.

AngryCorvair said:

In reply to mke :

Ferrari camshafts make excellent Challenge trophies.   Just sayin'...

Had I known what they'd sell for.

I have these I could donate 

Started cleaning up the pistons....looks like the valves were hitting.  Bank 1 seems to be more intakes, bank 2 more exhausts but its pretty much everything everywhere.  

I'll need to recut the relief pockets and then check the valves pretty carefully to see if any are bent.

I was laying in bed this morning thinking about what I needed to make to hold the pistons only to find a ferrari buddy offering up lending me this:

...borrowing is sure a lot easier :)  Just need to wait for it to arrive.

I looked back though old posts (other forums) and the best I can tell I never check the piston clearance.  I cast the chamber (just found the fake stub cylinder I used but didn't recall what it was until I saw the pics), sent it to JE, trusted their work completely and installed the pistons.....which was clearly stupid. Not sure how JE got it so wrong but shame on me for not checking it

I spent lot of time with the simulations picking valve timing thinking its a pain in the butt to mess with on the engine so even though I KNOW I will be leaving HP on the table by not messing with it on the engine....I just don't believe I'll ever mess with it on the engine and the timing is set.  Even on the engine I wouldn't be moving it more than a few degrees.....the simulator says its a mid-range vs peak power thing with a get here by giving there compromise and I was looking for the spot that made the least difference when I settled on my final numbers. So I'm thinking the marks on the pistons are probably all I need to worry about 

My plan is measure the marks on all the pistons and go from there.  Most car places say .080" intake/.100 exhaust on depth but motorcycle places are more like .050/.080 and I have motorcycle valves and cam spec too for the most part so I guess anywhere in between the 2 sets of numbers is good.  Then I guess about .040-.050 radially and that will be good...probably go towards .050+ actually as the valve most have defected making the marks.  Looks like all my new found compression after I had to face the heads when repairing the chamber is gone :(

Pulled a valve out of its bag, into the mill collect....runout.

new valve, no run out....well 2 tenths.  

1st back in different answer....more runout....hold it in different places and get different answers

New valve....wait, same thing....choke all the way up its prefect, move a couple inches up the stem and its got 4 thou....the stem is not straight on the brand new valve.  

I pulled a second used valve out and its much better overall than the new one. but a little more runoff when I choke up all the way.

These are 5mm wet noodle stems so a little runout is probably okish...but.....I need to find some specs.

So, even though I thought it was car time I was mistaken.....its patio time.  It's now mostly dug out...I made it 12 ft wide, the "plan"changed to 14ft plus a firepit during the inspection.  It needs a retaining wall so that is first and the hole is ready for the footer, hopefully that goes in Tuesday and Wednesday at least a couple rows of block, I think it supposed to rain for about a week after that so it's kind of important that the work at the bottom of the trench gets finish while there is still a trench.  There are also a couple drain pipes in the way....nothing it ever easy it seems...but a week of rain should mean time to fix the pistons 

mke said:

Pulled a valve out of its bag, into the mill collect....runout.

new valve, no run out....well 2 tenths.  

1st back in different answer....more runout....hold it in different places and get different answers

New valve....wait, same thing....choke all the way up its prefect, move a couple inches up the stem and its got 4 thou....the stem is not straight on the brand new valve.  

I pulled a second used valve out and its much better overall than the new one. but a little more runoff when I choke up all the way.

These are 5mm wet noodle stems so a little runout is probably okish...but.....I need to find some specs.

I don't recall ever actually measuring runout on a new valve but I do know that I always face them and they always need a little material removed before they run true.

APEowner said:

I don't recall ever actually measuring runout on a new valve but I do know that I always face them and they always need a little material removed before they run true.

I guess thats about what is the normal run--out on a valve grinder?  Years ago I played around on a buddy's grinder with a few valves that where just tapped by the piston....blued them, reground then a couple I reblued and put back in....again it took a thou probably...a bit more measuring and I recall deciding that was the limit or the machine and I should quite screwing around and put them in the engine where they worked just fine.  Sadly said buddy has moved himself and his grinding machine to NC so I need another solution this time around.

I other news we been getting a lot of rain which is not ideal for trenches

It cause them to flood and cave-in.  and to make it worse its mostly been night rain, so I don't get to cancel patio work for the day and go to the shop, I get to pump out then re-dig the trench.  But Wed I got a Home depot delivery and quickly mixed 30 80# bags of concrete and dumped it in the hole.

And the last couple days did my work from home work early so I could get out and lay block and fix drain pipes.....and the wall is just popping out of the ground so rain no longer matter!....unless its day rain then it mean I get time on the engine :)  

mke said:

Wed I got a Home depot delivery and quickly mixed 30 80# bags of concrete and dumped it in the hole.

Sorry, wait, what? If I "quickly mixed" 3 80 pound bags of concrete I'd be done for 2 days. You did 10x that and just like mention it in passing.

Syscrush said:

Sorry, wait, what? If I "quickly mixed" 3 80 pound bags of concrete I'd be done for 2 days. You did 10x that and just like mention it in passing.

LOL....when I built the garage I treated myself to a pos harbor freight mixer....but it works and Sunday I finished the block and dumped another 35 80#bags of concrete in the cores.  Yay!

The better news is that today I got the final word that I do not need to cut the new wall that I filled with steel and concrete on the tape lines!

The bad news is "we"decided what would look best is to added another 18 feet of wall curved into the hill to make a pretty planting bed...just follow the paint line

The worse news is "we" think and even longer round wall on the other side of the patio would be perfect, "we" should do that......

I always assumed Ferrarri ownership had a lot of hidden costs, but I had no idea!

Progress looks great.

I would make a unilateral decision that "we" don't need to do that

I woulda burned the house down a few pages ago. Seriously, you have car stuff to do here eh?

Pete

NOHOME said:

I woulda burned the house down a few pages ago. 

I think he tried that ploy already and it didn't work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qloG4It-wv8&t=180s

NOHOME said:

I woulda burned the house down a few pages ago. Seriously, you have car stuff to do here eh?

 

Pete

Remember the car stuff did nearly burn the house down a couple years ago.....not sure I'll ever repay the debt I incurred during that episode......certainly I can't say no to basement work.....the question is when is it no longer basement......

Eurotrash_Ranch said:

I always assumed Ferrarri ownership had a lot of hidden costs, but I had no idea!

 

Progress looks great.

yeah......it seems even the weather is against me as it was supposed to rain all week which would have meant me in the shop all week, but barely a drop so far :(

It's raining so I'm in the shop, pics to follow, but this just popped in and I thought I'd share so we can all be safe during the shutdown and as we come out. (give it a munute)

Cut the valve pockets today. Yay!

I have the head drawing from the TR manual do I know the valve angles and I have angle blocks

The ground rod I got from mcmaster was a couple tons bigger than the wrist pins so I sanded it down

I measured the radius JE used and found the boring tool that matched

I set up a scrap piece in the vise and used it to set the boring diameter to .100" over the valve size to give 0.050 clearance per side

Then I picked our the piston with the worst looking valve marks, bought the cutter to the mark an moved over 0.050 and cut

They went quick then I changed over to intakes and realized something wasn't right.....the setup piece was centered the next was clearly not?....ahh the vise is moving, add shims the recut everything just to be sure

I notice a couple odd things.  The angle on the exhaust pockets was 20 not 21 I think and the spacing on the intakes was 36mm (exhaust side) not 38 but that is all fixed.  The piston I realized the lose vise on is ok...but I have 1 more new piston so I'll just replace the does look quite right one.  Job done now I can rebalance them

I opened Dynomation this morning and installed the latest version which brought me sad news.....I'm down to 805hp.  Honestly that number sounds way more right than 920 the older version spit out, but I like the 920 sounds way better .....I guess the good news is I have an 800hp dyno so maybe it doesn't need an modification to work....once the engine runs again that is.