Living with a car from the future: Tesla Model 3

FYI, if anyone happens to decide on a new Tesla (or maybe used from Tesla?), I have a referral code that will give both of us 1000 miles of free Supercharging. I didn't mention it before because I didn't want to come across as a shill for the cars, but, well, it's a nice bonus :)

The front plate mount I had didn't work - Miatas use a different tow hook thread. That would be a convenient bit of standardization if the industry managed it.

There was very little EV action at SEMA, unsurprisingly. I started another thread talking about the conversion side of things. For the OE EVs, there was nothing that I found. Nobody can improve on the electrical side of things. All modifications on display were giant wheels and stickers and stick-on spoilers and air suspensions. Even the guys that talked about "track models" were just doing the same. That was a bit disappointing, but not really surprising. The OEs are way ahead of the aftermarket, and I'm pretty sure you'd have to take a Tesla offline if you wanted to jailbreak it. The same may be true of the other cars, and might be a glimpse into the future of connected cars with OTA updates.

I never thought I'd be discussing jailbreaking a car.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I think in the Hoonigan Videos at EV West they have said they have the ability to "Tune" teslas drivetrains.  from this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIMayrQOTmc at 9 mins

The teslas drive train is hackable but the rest of the systems are too tied into the mothership. So it works as a drivetrain but as a whole car it looks like it wont be that good.

Yeah, I'm looking at the whole car and not swaps. Once you rip the parts out of the car and take them offline, you can control them. Although it would be interesting to see how - a full control module from scratch or simply a way to keep the Tesla parts happy?

EV West did have a 911 with a Tesla S motor in the back at the show. But that's a very different thing than trying to modify an existing car for most of the marketplace.

Keith Tanner said:

Yeah, I'm looking at the whole car and not swaps. Once you rip the parts out of the car and take them offline, you can control them. Although it would be interesting to see how - a full control module from scratch or simply a way to keep the Tesla parts happy?

EV West did have a 911 with a Tesla S motor in the back at the show. But that's a very different thing than trying to modify an existing car for most of the marketplace.

And EV west has bolt in swaps for AC 911's and beetles anyway.

Here's an interesting bit of owner investigation. Some of these guys are really obsessive about datalogging their cars, and according to this guy's calculation the latest powertrain software release has lifted peak power by 7.5% and has decreased the 0-60 by 0.1s and 0-100 time by 0.5s.

Forum thread

I'm not going to analyze his numbers, but it does illustrate a bit of an odd thing about EVs - they're more dependent on software than you realize. There have been over-the-air (OTA) software updates that have improved the range of the cars as well. I expect that what happened here is that Tesla has found the batteries and other components are lasting longer than expected, so they've backed off on the restrictions. It's fascinating to think that a car would get faster and more efficient after purchase, and not by breaking in the engine. Also that this happens silently without a service visit or any owner intervention.

It also makes me wonder what the full "War emergency" rating on these engines and batteries would be if they were allowed to take damage.

This isn't restricted to EVs, of course. A new software update can change the behavior of our WJ's transmission dramatically, leading to a smoother driving experience and improved fuel economy. There's even an internet rumor that you can unlock an extra gear or two with software, but I have not been able to make that happen. But they're more the exception than the rule and they're higher effort than this sneaky OTA upgrade.

Also - if you drive this car like you're in a hurry, it really hustles. I'm a little worried about what will happen when every stay-at-home Realtor(TM) trades in her Lexus SUV for a Tesla, honestly. Again, I can see why tire life is a problem for some people, the car seems to encourage you to toss it around in ways that you shouldn't toss a 4000 lb car.

Tesla has extended vehicle range up to 40 miles via OTA on multiple occasions for those in the path of large storms. It turns out the only differences between a 60kw Tesla and a 75kw Tesla were the software tune and about $9k in purchase price. That's an expensive calibration that even Porsche could be proud of!

MINI did the same thing in the UK - the budget MINI One was a Cooper with a drive-by-wire throttle that only opened 80%. A little closer to home, the controller kit for the 525 hp LS376/525 crate engine is the exact same hardware as the 430 hp LS3 crate, but the 525 hp version is more expensive. This may be to cover an expected increase in warranty costs - which may have also factored into Tesla's pricing, as using more battery capacity will degrade it faster. It is pretty cool that they can (and did) unlock it for emergencies.

My Tesla has the “self driving” hardware but I didn’t pay the $6k unlock fee. I am okay with that. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I wonder, did you get to test the self driving during your test drive of the model 3?  Have you ever tried a car for a more extended period with the full self driving unlocked?

The potential for the thread to flounder is high on this subject 

I would like to spend some time with a car with the full self driving (FSD) just to try to figure out how it thinks. I’m the sort of guy who will watch and decipher how a robot vacuum navigates around the room. FSD is not ready for full deployment yet but it would still be interesting to see it work.

When we took our test drive of the 3, we were dealing with so many different new things (“how do you make it go?”) that FSD would have been too much. But now, I’d love a shot at it. No interest in having it on my own car, oddly, but I would like to play with one as an experiment.

BTW, I did see one Tesla accessory at SEMA that I want. Proper Moon discs from Moon.

Janel informed me that I was welcome to put them on MY Tesla, but they would not be going on HER Tesla. Well, nuts.

Keith Tanner said:

FYI, if anyone happens to decide on a new Tesla (or maybe used from Tesla?), I have a referral code that will give both of us 1000 miles of free Supercharging. I didn't mention it before because I didn't want to come across as a shill for the cars, but, well, it's a nice bonus :)

The front plate mount I had didn't work - Miatas use a different tow hook thread. That would be a convenient bit of standardization if the industry managed it.

There was very little EV action at SEMA, unsurprisingly. I started another thread talking about the conversion side of things. For the OE EVs, there was nothing that I found. Nobody can improve on the electrical side of things. All modifications on display were giant wheels and stickers and stick-on spoilers and air suspensions. Even the guys that talked about "track models" were just doing the same. That was a bit disappointing, but not really surprising. The OEs are way ahead of the aftermarket, and I'm pretty sure you'd have to take a Tesla offline if you wanted to jailbreak it. The same may be true of the other cars, and might be a glimpse into the future of connected cars with OTA updates.

I never thought I'd be discussing jailbreaking a car.

 

Wondering ..did you happen to see if ICON had their 49-51 Merc/Tesla mashup there???   incredible effort on all fronts.....check it 

I wish i could be more forth coming, but a patient of my Chiro has Tesla that he has entered 'way' points for his hands free drive to the ranch(property) a good ways away from the house, while he kindles......

That’s the sort of thing that could completely derail this thread. I suggest we start another thread to discuss the potential and current use of autonomy, because it could be a little exciting. 

Keith Tanner said:

Here's an interesting bit of owner investigation. Some of these guys are really obsessive about datalogging their cars, and according to this guy's calculation the latest powertrain software release has lifted peak power by 7.5% and has decreased the 0-60 by 0.1s and 0-100 time by 0.5s.

Forum thread

I'm not going to analyze his numbers, but it does illustrate a bit of an odd thing about EVs - they're more dependent on software than you realize. There have been over-the-air (OTA) software updates that have improved the range of the cars as well. I expect that what happened here is that Tesla has found the batteries and other components are lasting longer than expected, so they've backed off on the restrictions. It's fascinating to think that a car would get faster and more efficient after purchase, and not by breaking in the engine. Also that this happens silently without a service visit or any owner intervention.

It also makes me wonder what the full "War emergency" rating on these engines and batteries would be if they were allowed to take damage.

This isn't restricted to EVs, of course. A new software update can change the behavior of our WJ's transmission dramatically, leading to a smoother driving experience and improved fuel economy. There's even an internet rumor that you can unlock an extra gear or two with software, but I have not been able to make that happen. But they're more the exception than the rule and they're higher effort than this sneaky OTA upgrade.

Also - if you drive this car like you're in a hurry, it really hustles. I'm a little worried about what will happen when every stay-at-home Realtor(TM) trades in her Lexus SUV for a Tesla, honestly. Again, I can see why tire life is a problem for some people, the car seems to encourage you to toss it around in ways that you shouldn't toss a 4000 lb car.

The other side of this is the model 3 that Edmunds tested. Some software update caused the braking distance to go from 133 to 155 feet. That power can be used, abused, or just screwed with by accident. I don't think I trust anyone that much. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

It should not flounder this thread.  No sane Tesla owner or non owner suggests that anyone should sleep, or read or in anyway not pay attention.  What Elon is selling is software which can allow the driver to forego having to manually operate the controls in certain situations.  This doesn’t mean that the driver should not monitor and be ready to take control at anytime.  Anyone who has used the system also understands that the autopilot doesn’t only monitor the road in front but the driver within.  If a driver is not monitoring the situation fairly closely the autopilot system will lock the driver out and will no longer engage the autopilot until the car comes to a stop and is placed into Park.  As far as driver safety systems deployed on other cars, the Tesla autopilot is so far ahead, it would be like comparing apples and spaceships.

The other side of this is the model 3 that Edmunds tested. Some software update caused the braking distance to go from 133 to 155 feet. That power can be used, abused, or just screwed with by accident. I don't think I trust anyone that much. 

I’m trying to confirm that story. It looks like it got munched in the retelling and Tesla has a tendency to attract very polarized coverage. Let’s go to the source.

What it says on the Edmunds site was that Edmunds had found the stopping distance below average, but not exceptionally so given the tire tw rating, pressure  and vehicle weight. CR got inconsistent numbers on different cars and was vocally unimpressed. In response to the criticism, Tesla pushed out an OTA upgrade. 

After the upgrade, the braking distance was shorter for both groups by as much as 20’ and repeatable. That’s where your numbers come from, the improvement. It looks to me like a brake bias miscalibration that was triggering ABS early and inconsistently.

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/tesla-model-3-review-falls-short-of-consumer-reports-recommendation/

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-model-3-gets-cr-recommendation-after-braking-update/

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2017/long-term-road-test/2017-tesla-model-3-stopping-distance-retest-after-an-abs-firmware-update.html

So it wasn’t a problem that was broken with an upgrade. It was early production cars that were fixed with one. It’s the sort of thing that might have prompted a recall otherwise. If it were not for the OTA capability, it would have been a dealer visit.

mattm said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

It should not flounder this thread.  No sane Tesla owner or non owner suggests that anyone should sleep, or read or in anyway not pay attention.  What Elon is selling is software which can allow the driver to forego having to manually operate the controls in certain situations.  This doesn’t mean that the driver should not monitor and be ready to take control at anytime.  Anyone who has used the system also understands that the autopilot doesn’t only monitor the road in front but the driver within.  If a driver is not monitoring the situation fairly closely the autopilot system will lock the driver out and will no longer engage the autopilot until the car comes to a stop and is placed into Park.  As far as driver safety systems deployed on other cars, the Tesla autopilot is so far ahead, it would be like comparing apples and spaceships.

I think we can all agree that the current state of autonomy is not ready for people to be abdicating their role as a driver. 

tuna55 said:

Keith Tanner said:

Here's an interesting bit of owner investigation. Some of these guys are really obsessive about datalogging their cars, and according to this guy's calculation the latest powertrain software release has lifted peak power by 7.5% and has decreased the 0-60 by 0.1s and 0-100 time by 0.5s.

Forum thread

I'm not going to analyze his numbers, but it does illustrate a bit of an odd thing about EVs - they're more dependent on software than you realize. There have been over-the-air (OTA) software updates that have improved the range of the cars as well. I expect that what happened here is that Tesla has found the batteries and other components are lasting longer than expected, so they've backed off on the restrictions. It's fascinating to think that a car would get faster and more efficient after purchase, and not by breaking in the engine. Also that this happens silently without a service visit or any owner intervention.

It also makes me wonder what the full "War emergency" rating on these engines and batteries would be if they were allowed to take damage.

This isn't restricted to EVs, of course. A new software update can change the behavior of our WJ's transmission dramatically, leading to a smoother driving experience and improved fuel economy. There's even an internet rumor that you can unlock an extra gear or two with software, but I have not been able to make that happen. But they're more the exception than the rule and they're higher effort than this sneaky OTA upgrade.

Also - if you drive this car like you're in a hurry, it really hustles. I'm a little worried about what will happen when every stay-at-home Realtor(TM) trades in her Lexus SUV for a Tesla, honestly. Again, I can see why tire life is a problem for some people, the car seems to encourage you to toss it around in ways that you shouldn't toss a 4000 lb car.

The other side of this is the model 3 that Edmunds tested. Some software update caused the braking distance to go from 133 to 155 feet. That power can be used, abused, or just screwed with by accident. I don't think I trust anyone that much. 

This is actually a problem for GM.  Going forward, software updates will be important.  Cars will get better over their lifetime up to the limit of the hardware. GM is at a disadvantage in software development which is even more important with EVs due to the power train and batteries. The user GUIs on the GM EVs is a perfect demonstration of how to make a user interface as complicated and non intuitive as possible.  Efficiency and simplicity are the future and all the legacy auto manufacturers are ill equipped to deliver a software experience like Tesla. 

Keith Tanner said:

The other side of this is the model 3 that Edmunds tested. Some software update caused the braking distance to go from 133 to 155 feet. That power can be used, abused, or just screwed with by accident. I don't think I trust anyone that much. 

I’m trying to confirm that story. It looks like it got munched in the retelling and Tesla has a tendency to attract very polarized coverage. Let’s go to the source.

What it says on the Edmunds site was that Edmunds had found the stopping distance below average, but not exceptionally so given the tire tw rating, pressure  and vehicle weight. CR got inconsistent numbers on different cars and was vocally unimpressed. In response to the criticism, Tesla pushed out an OTA upgrade. 

After the upgrade, the braking distance was shorter for both groups by as much as 20’ and repeatable. That’s where your numbers come from, the improvement. It looks to me like a brake bias miscalibration that was triggering ABS early and inconsistently.

https://www.consumerreports.org/hybrids-evs/tesla-model-3-review-falls-short-of-consumer-reports-recommendation/

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-safety/tesla-model-3-gets-cr-recommendation-after-braking-update/

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2017/long-term-road-test/2017-tesla-model-3-stopping-distance-retest-after-an-abs-firmware-update.html

So it wasn’t a problem that was broken with an upgrade. It was early production cars that were fixed with one. It’s the sort of thing that might have prompted a recall otherwise. If it were not for the OTA capability, it would have been a dealer visit.

There is a forced bias in either retelling, but here is my major issue.

Exactly because there was not a recall, we don't know if the problem was shipped from the factory or not. Thus, we don't know if the same mistake could be made (or an equivalent mistake that would be hard to notice until it really mattered) through an OTA update.

Essentially, despite being fairly libertarian and conservative politically, I value the rigor and oversight we have through the recall process. Skipping around that in either direction gives me the heebie jeebies.

Both cars were tested initially basically on delivery, so it’s fairly clear they were shipped that way. I went to the source to try to get the most accurate story, so there’s your bias. Did Tesla screw something up in the initial calibration? Yes. Did they fix it? Yes. Was there are OTA update that increased stopping distance by 20’? It appears there was not.

But the only real difference here between this update and a recall  is the method of delivery and the speed of implementation. I’m not sure there is a lot or rigor and oversight involved in recalls based on my experience with Dodge’s inability to provide a replacement for recalled ball joints in less that a year. “Don’t worry, the steering on your new truck will probably break at parking lot speeds”, I was told.

Your worry is that one of the OTA updates will break something else, that some sort of independent review is being missed. I’m not sure that exists in the recall system. All it does is add more friction to the process and the chance that not all cars will get the fix. Heck, I have a Miata in my garage that appears to have missed a recall 30 years ago that changes how the DRLs work. That’s the sort of thing that would be 100% software now (source: I have read the technical documentation on the turn indicators for 2019 Miatas) and very easy to fix via OTA. 

I know you have some distrust of Tesla for...reasons. But the OTA update system is going to become standard in all cars over time, and I’m not sure Tesla is any more or any less trustworthy than, say, GM in this regard. If a BCM that occasionally gets jacked up because of a bug could be fixed once and for all without a dealer visit, would that not be good?

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Fair points, all.

I doubt the rigor Tesla has in their engineering department, just based on being an engineer and seeing outward signs

Do I have a legitimate reason to place the rigor of a traditional OEM higher than that? Maybe.

I really do hope they succeed. I won't be interested in having one in my driveway though.

tuna55 said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Fair points, all.

 

I doubt the rigor Tesla has in their engineering department, just based on being an engineer and seeing outward signs

 

Do I have a legitimate reason to place the rigor of a traditional OEM higher than that? Maybe.

 

I really do hope they succeed. I won't be interested in having one in my driveway though.

Now I have no proof, but The Smoking tire had a really interesting podcast recently where they discussed Tesla. 

Really interesting discussion about how Tesla treats the car like a tech device and not a vehicle. Long term durability is NOT a priority. They do not test for product life... As an engineer it made the brand seem exactly like an apple device. 

As Matt said later "no one wants an Iphone 1.  no one will want a Tesla 1. They probably should just recycle them after the 3 year lease is up."  

I'm interested in the Rivian R1T myself.  or the Tesla Truck. if it ever happens.

I'd be interested in Matt's deep insider information on this subject. Or is he just shouting into the echo chamber? Matt's income is dependent on clicks, and that sort of take will get you clicks.

Tesla does feel a lot like Apple in some ways from the outside - the buying experience is far more like an Apple Store than an old-school dealership, and the way the car feels like it was developed as a whole instead of by different teams feels like the integrated experience of an iPhone. As for durability - I use a 2012 Macbook Pro at home and a 2014 iMac at work, so I'm not sure I'm convinced that long-term use is not part of the testing regimen :)

BTW, there's an interview with Musk by Everyday Astronaut that covers this integrated experience, actually. It's about SpaceX but it may apply to Tesla. He talks about how every engineer needs a good understanding of how every subsystem works, otherwise you just design up to the interface of your aspect and you don't question the constraints. You can end up optimizing a thing that shouldn't exist. The product errors reflect the organizational errors.  No matter what your personal feelings about Musk (there's a reason I have not mentioned him, because everyone has opinions there!), it's good food for thought.

Looking at the mechanicals (electricals?), there is a dramatic difference between the Model S (aka Tesla 2) and the Model 3 (Tesla 4). One looks like it has a long of hand assembly and machining in it, the other looks like it was created by a major automaker for mass production with much more sophistication.

In reply to Mad_Ratel :

Right.

That jives with my viewpoint from the outside.

Bear in mind that I don't work for or with them. I do have experience working as en engineer for a few different industries, including automotive. I have seen the dirty ugly stuff in all of them. The things Tesla has done which are public are more than enough to sink a normal non-speculatively-funded company. That gives me some pause. The way that they don't seem to care makes it worse. I have a friend with a Model S, and he said "I had a 2013 and loved it but too many issues being such an early build so I upgraded to a 2016..."

Nobody has ever said that about anything but Teslas and Apple products.

"I bought a Chevy Cruze, but I had too many issues, so I bought another one."

Anyway, my point (and I apologize for the threadjack) is that the outward signs, from a guy who knows a little bit about how engineering departments work, make me very nervous about how they handle their internal processes and controls on important things.

Fair point on his view count. My memmory says that it was a discussion of a book that was released recently about Tesla and their practices.

Discussion involved the fact that Gm will test their screens to work in Dubai for years, i.e. automotive level products only used. The screens in the tesla's are normally available screens not specificially designed for the same work. 

Talk to Louis Rossman (youtube) about how much money he's made repairing Apple devices that the Genius bar fails at repairing.  Rich Rebuilds just started Electrified Garage to offer repairs to Tesla owners that Tesla has told are E36 M3 out of luck.  His channel also details the trials and tribulations he has had to repair his car (and others). Tesla prioritizes parts to production, not to maintaining cars already sold... 

i.e. Tesla's systems were bricking. Why? because they used a normal household SD card to store data, once it hit the limit on write/reads it'd stop and kill essential functions... To get to this sd card involves taking the dash apart..  *it has been a while since I saw this story so details are fuzzy*