Locost 7... Model A Ford roadster pickup?

mke said:

150-200 hp/liter from a boosted street-able engine seems very reasonable to me.  There are also a good number of example in the 300 hp/liter range but is harder to make it play nice on the street and it pretty much seems to be the domain of computer fuel and spark rather than the easier/cheaper mechanical stuff, at least if its to be street-able.....so what is you plan here?

Honestly.... 300 HP/Liter is what I want. I'd love to hit that magic 1,000 HP number, just because. I'm not made of money, though, so to be able to get anywhere close, it's going to take me a while to get the parts and machining done. 

But these days, power is the easy (if still not cheap) part of the equation. I've been spending a lot of time working through a bunch of suspension system info, trying to make reasonably sure that I can get the power to the ground, and turn corners, even with beam axles. 

I won't be complaining if I don't end up with a four digit dyno sheet, but I will keep going if it's not at least 600 at the wheels.

As for my plan, it's 'street driven road/autocross race car'. 

Oh, yeah - I'm also building a steering wheel... 

Oh, yeah - I'm also building a steering wheel... 

Where are you sourcing the switches for your wheel?  I'll be needing dash panel switches for my datsun replica build....

JoeyM said:

Where are you sourcing the switches for your wheel?  I'll be needing dash panel switches for my datsun replica build....

The usual suspects: Digi-key, Mouser, SparkFun, JameCo, or one of the other electronics suppliers. I haven't started looking yet - except for the thumb wheels - and I have enough to make a working prototype.

I'll probably end up using an LCD screen instead of the separate LEDs I drew, but that's just details. I'm just trying to get some ideas on what I want and need down.

I still need to add horn buttons, an in-your-face shift light, and maybe a few other things, but it's coming along. 

Sergeant82d said:

 

I won't be complaining if I don't end up with a four digit dyno sheet, but I will keep going if it's not at least 600 at the wheels.

And problems like that with dyno sheets being really good but not quite what you wanted are exactly why god gave us nitrous :)

Oh, yeah - I'm also building a steering wheel... 

Ooooooooo.......that's a lot of switches and a design normally limiter to maybe 210 degress or so lock to lock.

so...fast power driven rack?

Are you going to CAN the steering wheel to the ECU or try to run wires for everything?

Which then begs the question, what are you planning for an ECU to handle so many custom inputs?  Or a separate chassis controller? 

Tell me its getting paddle shift and you'll be my hero :)  That's kind of the dream with my Lincoln (someday) project but I've not really given any thought to how to actually do it other than I know I can create just about any output needed the enginelab ecu I have on the frankenferrari if I can figure out what outputs are needed.

mke said:

at least 600 at the wheels.

And problems like that with dyno sheets being really good but not quite what you wanted are exactly why god gave us nitrous :)

 I love the results, but hate the idea of having to refill bottles. But I have been looking at This:

Ooooooooo.......that's a lot of switches and a design normally limiter to maybe 210 degress or so lock to lock.

so...fast power driven rack?

I didn't want to mess with making a rack play nice with a solid axle, but yes - the fastest factory power GM/Saginaw box (2 3/4 turns) with a long Pitman arm and short arm on the wheels. 

Are you going to CAN the steering wheel to the ECU or try to run wires for everything?

Either CAN or peer to peer wireless 

Which then begs the question, what are you planning for an ECU to handle so many custom inputs?  Or a separate chassis controller? 

MegaSquirt Pro for the engine, plus a Microsquirt for logging, if needed, and a Raspberry pi 4 for body control. 

Tell me its getting paddle shift and you'll be my hero :)

It's so nice to be appreciated! 

Seriously, paddle shifters are what I've wanted since the idea of this thing started growing in my mind. The best I can answer, though, is 'someday'. 

Initially I'll be using a C4, and when the engine is built, a tko600... But I'd love to be able to hook up a 6-or 8L80 to this thing... 

Sergeant82d said:

mke said:

are you planning for an ECU to handle so many custom inputs?  Or a separate chassis controller? 

MegaSquirt Pro for the engine, plus a Microsquirt and Raspberry Pi 4 for logging and body control. 

have you looked at something like an enginelab?  It's a lot like a motec M150 with the development package just a whole lot cheaper

enginelab ecu

It seems like by the time to you buy all those different units you'll have spent more and have and probably not have a system that is as capable than you'd get just starting with a one powerful unit.  The down side to an enginelab setup is you need to create the "model" which is the control architecture and that is a bit of work but it gives you complete control of what is being done and how (the motec development package includes all there released packages as a starting point)

I keep a copy of my model here (its a little out of date) for anyone who wants to use any part of it as a head start

mke enginelab model

Just a thought....but stuff like logging 500+ channels at 1000hz (to the pc, 200 to usb stick) is pretty nice while troubleshooting and I have ITBs so I set it up with a separate map to each cylinder and a sync screen I can pull up to look at while I play with the adjusters....stuff that generic systems just can't do.  

Are people using p2p setups in cars now?  I've not seen that before.

In reply to mke :

have you looked at something like an enginelab? 

Short answer - no. First blush looks interesting... 

stuff like logging 500+ channels at 1000hz (to the pc, 200 to usb stick) is pretty nice while troubleshooting

That kind of logging rate is awesome. If I was actually going to seriously race, I would be sorely tempted, just for that... 

Are people using p2p setups in cars now? I've not seen that before.

I'm not sure if I qualify as 'people' ... But I have read of it in R&D stuff.

The MS Pro has nearly as many inputs, and enough outputs to handle a lot of what I want, without adding anything. I (think) I like the modularity of physically separate ECU/BCMs, while still managing them through the same pc software. Just as EngineLab does... Not trying to argue over the issue - I have zero experience with either - and I will not be making that decision for a while, so maybe you can convince me! 

In reply to mke :

In regards to using a BCM, I really plan to try to limit my ECU requirements (to the body module) to a time stamp and whatever minimum data is needed to make sense for the body stuff. And vice versa. 

An off the top of my head example might be 'since the wipers are on, do I need to adjust the water/methanol injection rate for charge temperature conditions?'. At which point the ECU could get a message from the BCM to increase the temperature sensing rate, or something. IDK. I'm not a pro, just playing it by ear. 

I really do appreciate your input! Please keep it up! 

In reply to Sergeant82d :

No wrong answer.  Different setups are just different so preference I think. I like the idea of a high hp processor and the ability to set inputs and outputs to do whatever I please....but there is certainly something to be said for off the shelf and customer support like you'd have with MS.

Edit - your 2nd post came in while I was typing.  In the enginelab model  you get up to 8 threads so I do 7ms for the main engine spark/fuel calcs but stuff like cooolant temp is on a 999ms thread, Air temp is on a 100ms iirc because I'm NA so that doesn't change very fast but then I do MAP on a 3ms thread which lets me pull cylinder data off it.  I just kind of enjoy being able to mess with it...preference.

In reply to mke :

The 50 MHz 16-bit processor is the only thing I don't like about the MS. I can only hope they are working on a next generation version with a 32- or even 64-bit ARM.

I play with microcontrollers as another hobby, and even for my very low-key projects I have shifted from discrete 8-bitters to Cortex M0 32 bit ARM's. They're just as cheap, and a lot easier to use! Everything has been ported to Arduino and mBed compilers, so there is a vast amount of sample code for just about anything to work from. 

And yeah, I like messing with it too. 

Sergeant82d said:

In reply to mke :

The 50 MHz 16-bit processor is the only thing I don't like about the MS. I can only hope they are working on a next generation version with a 32- or even 64-bit ARM.

yeah...but they make it work.  I'm pretty sure the chip has a co-prossecor that was upgraded a few years back which is what let them do the MS3 product.....but you really see its an old chip design with storage limits, logging abilities and such.  It works though.

And yeah, I like messing with it too. 

You should download the enginelab software to play with then......it brings messing with it to a whole new level.  The software runs in simulation mode on the PC so you can do almost all your development without and HW or ever have to thing about compliling again.  Pretty easy once you get the hamg of it.  AEM 3, 5, 7  series ecus are built on the enginelab package ut with AEM the user is locked out of the "model" so that is another place to see what they are capable of.

If ARM is your passion maybe have a look at rusefi ....open souce if you don't mind soldering and working in C.  They continue to add stuff....but I've never fully understood how accurate the timing is controlled compared to chips like MS uses or the much new versions the OEMs use that have dedicated co-processors and multiple timers for the time critical functions where worst care error is about 1mircosec....I don't think you can do that with an ARM.  I was trying to talk a buddy into adding an FPGA to an ARM to make a really high quality but low cost ecu......too many projects, nowhere near enough time.......and maybe the ARM alone is good enough?  I just don't know.

In reply to mke :

I'm pretty sure the chip has a co-prossecor that was upgraded a few years back which is what let them do the MS3 product.....

Yeah, it's a dual core 

You should download the enginelab software to play with then......

I'll do that tonight! I bought the tuning and data logging/analysis software for the MS a while back, to start getting familiar with it, but since this is free/locked to the hardware, I will play with it!

AEM 3, 5, 7 series ecus are built on the enginelab package ut with AEM the user is locked out of the "model" so that is another place to see what they are capable of.

I'm very impressed with this series of controllers, so that is a big point in its favor. 

Sergeant82d said:

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

If you want to save money on your engine - just buy a junkyard LS. It's LOTS cheaper. For that matter, you can buy a new or rebuilt crate motor for less. The only reason to build an inline six is if you just want to... 'cause it's going to cost you a lot more. 

Anyway - warning given, let's move on. ​​​​​​

There are a few different connecting rods available which are a reasonable retrofit for the small six (I think the BBC (big block chevy) rods will fit in the 240/300 large Ford sixes). The most popular is the Toyota 1jz, but the Windsor v8 has the same big end as the 200, from the factory. It is a little narrower on the small end, but since custom pistons are a given (in my case), that's not a big deal.

The 1jz rod (4.93 inches long) requires a regrind of the crank, as it's big end is a little smaller than stock. That obviously allows you to offset grind the crank if you want to gain an extra 5-6 cid... 

Anyway - the longer rod reduces the thrust angles the engine sees (on the cylinder walls), and improves the breathing because of the longer dwell time at the top and bottom of the stroke, and the attendant increase in piston acceleration. 

By increasing the rod length by 3/8ths inch (to 5.09), the original rod/stroke ratio of 1.5:1 (4.715 rod, 3.126 stroke) is increased to 1.63:1 - a long way towards the some-say-magical number of 1.75.

So there's that... 

And that is just about everything I know about this subject... And it could be wrong, because this IS the internet... 

Hope this helps!

Brad 

LS is the easy button? You don't say

That's really neat on piston dwell and ratio; it sounds like darn-near a perfect upgrade to the engine, outside of some form of OHC head or something like that. Makes me wonder what similar things could be done to the Ford 300 I6.

What's next for engine improvements? I'm guessing bigger valves?

GIRTHQUAKE said:

LS is the easy button? You don't say

Yeah, yeah - no $xxt Sherlock...  But to be fair, you did say 'budget' 

That's really neat on piston dwell and ratio; it sounds like darn-near a perfect upgrade to the engine, outside of some form of OHC head or something like that.

Aftermarket Aluminum Head

Makes me wonder what similar things could be done to the Ford 300 I6.

What else? LS to the rescue:

LS heads on Ford 300 inline 6

What's next for engine improvements? I'm guessing bigger valves?

The new head (that I've been waiting a year for and still don't have) has much larger valves - by about a tenth of an inch, both intake and exhaust. As importantly, it also has a vastly improved combustion chamber and ports. It flows nearly three times the rate of the stock head, so I have a lot of expectations for it. 

Carl Heideman said:

.... However, because of these being available, people are sometimes rebuilding their fiberglass bodied cars with these and the old bodies are usually pretty cheap.  

Thanks for the heads up! Know of any? 

Keep going!

Again, thanks! I am/will be! 

After a few weeks of ill weather, bad health, and the four letter word (w o r k), I was able to get back in the shop. 

I was able to - finally - mount the engine and transmission, for good. Huge step ahead, more for what it allows than for the fact itself. Although it does tickle my fancy. 

<I will insert a couple of pictures here soon! I can't believe I didn't take any... >

<adding pics! 7th March 2020>

Trans mount for factory style C4 cushioned version. Removable for future TKO-600 manual swap... 

Solid motor mount. Added center rails, even after telling you (myself) I wasn't going to... More weight, Yay! 

<End of added pics>

And now that I don't have to worry about where the engine goes, I can start breaking it down for rebuilding. One of my boys - 12 year old twins - did most of the work, so lucky me! 

Of course, this means that I now get to start spending real money... Yay..... 

Wow, another month gone by without an update. Good thing I am retired and have no deadline for this. 

You probably don't remember the front axle batwings I was making a few months ago:

I put them where I thought I wanted them, but it was the end of the day and my blood sugar was dropping, and I screwed up. So I had to cut them off and start over:

I have to continually tell myself to slow down and do it - well, if not right, then at least better. I have a tendency to rush when I am doing things and end up doing them over. 

But I also have to actually do things, and not have analysis paralysis. As well as work around my physical abilities and time constraints. Oh well - that's called 'life'. 

Anyway - I got a few more parts in. A billet adjustable timing set from Australia, ARP main studs, and my custom solid lifter cam will be here next week. 

There are a few mods that I want to do to the block to improve oil drain back and such, but then I'll be able to take it to the machine shop for blueprinting. 

I have a few other things to do this weekend, but the weather is supposed to be excellent, so I hope to get a little more work done on it. 

I missed this project when you first posted it, but man, I'm glad I found it.  I love these non-standard builds where the fabrication really goes to town and builds something unique.  I've got some experience with the old 200 straight six, so it'll be fun to see one all done up!

Where'd you get the billet timing set from?  

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Vintageinlines.com 

In reply to Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks! I'm looking forward to it, even though I keep having second thoughts over 'just getting an LS'... Especially when I look at the prices involved... 

But, we're about to remodel our house, and I'm cashing out some equity that I'm going to dump into this thing. Once in a lifetime kind of thing... So I'm going to shoot for the moon! 

Wow, three months since I posted on this build. I have been working on it… Just not accomplishing much. Of course, Covid-19 has affected it, as it has everything, along with our working on getting our home remodel started. Which is about to get serious…

Anyway - I have finished up the front Mumford link axle locater, and finalized the pushrod/ bellcrank suspension parts, and started mounting the steering box. My big hold up was that I wanted to mount the Mumford behind the axle. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to get it in there… It held me up way too long, before I decided to just move the radiator and I/C, and mount the links in front of the axle.

I roughed in the steering shaft and wheel, so it is getting to the point where you can almost sit in it and make vroom vroom noises…

Top mount for the steering box. I welded the mount to a tube, mounted perpendicular to the centerline, through the top frame rail. I'll build in the rest of the mount with 3/16ths plate, but this gets it located.

Mumford link levers on ¾ inch grade 8 bolts and high load bushings. Bushings are rated for 5200 lbs in dynamic radial load, or close to 10 G. I'm hoping that's enough!

The brown tubes at the top middle are my coilover mockups. I can set them to any length between 9 and 16 inches (by the ¼ inch). I'm planning on a 10-14 inch shock.

Bellcrank bushings in progress.

Steering wheel quick release. The wheel is just for mockup, and has a different bolt pattern, so is just zip-tied on.

I'll wrap up a few more small things here and there. Then I'll flip it end for end, so I can start working on the rear suspension and bits.

I have mentioned the Model A cowl I bought, but never showed it. I stashed it above my cutoff saw cabinet for later... 

I picked up a couple of storage cabinets for drill bits and related stuff, and an awesome Te-Co t-slot hold down set for the drill press. The bit cabinet is the star though. If you swing for one - a Huot 5-drawer model, in my case - I guarantee you will love it. 

An index is great, but you always end up breaking or losing the small bits, and you really need to buy those sizes in quantity. This lets you keep them organized and convenient, and makes for much less stress.