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Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson UltimaDork
6/18/15 9:29 a.m.

berkeley it, that's it, I'm putting all my tools on craigslist. As if I didn't feel lame enough already compared to supercharged V8 Mercedes' builds, V8 Firefly's, LSx MG's etc now we have DIY lambo's. I am truly not worthy of this place anymore.

Totally awesome build.

turboswede
turboswede MegaDork
6/18/15 10:02 a.m.
Javelin wrote:
turboswede wrote: In reply to Javelin: Yeah, I realized I had skipped ya when I was driving home. Not intentional, just didn't see your build thread come up with a quick browse. Maybe you could knock it off with the procreation and update your Javelin build thread? You're going to give BGKast a run for his money with the number of child seats needed

Nope, 2 and done for us. And the build thread will have the most epic mic drop ever on Tuesday.

You tease!

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy SuperDork
6/18/15 11:40 a.m.
corsepervita wrote: My machinist has already found plenty of things we can do with head work to make them flow better. Part of me was surprised, part of me wasn't. Good example is the valve seats have a giant lip with no material added behind them, so it's abrupt and cheesy. Obviously and easy fix, but he's going to need to massage the heads and put them on his flow bench (which I can't wait for). The valves were sodium filled (which is fine) but had a tendency to break from what I've been told. Which was apparent when things were taken apart, stubborn, and any pressure was put on them during the camshaft removal process. No biggie though because I'd rather update them to modern materials anyway. Would rather it happen during disassembly, than during driving. My engine also suffers from the classic head gasket issue that seems to be well known on these cars (so I've been told). The materials back then weren't so great, apparently fail in such a manner that the open heads become exposed to coolant, pit terribly and then have to be welded. Mine are going in for that repair as we speak, then flow work and parts can be done. I'll try to find a head gasket picture later, it was horrendous. I've been told by a few owners, "If you buy a Jalpa, and no one has done the head gaskets by now, plan on a full head gasket job and head repairs."

PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

corsepervita
corsepervita New Reader
6/18/15 11:52 a.m.
tuna55 wrote: I totally don't deserve to be mentioned, but thanks. Take tons of pictures. A lot of us have never even seen the outside of a Lambo engine. I am genuinely curious to see the brilliance and stupidity. I suspect you'll find plenty of both!

I take pics of pretty much everything I do on cars because it's fun to me to keep a log of progress. It's nice to see before and after as well. I can tell you a giant laundry list of things that make me go, "Hmmmm." I can also give a large laundry list of things I love. No manufacturer is perfect by any means.

Mad_Ratel wrote: Is your 924 Adventurine Green? I know that is an ultra rare color in 968's.

I had to look it up because it's an odd one, and I've only seen it a few times. The color is actually "Onyx Green Metallic" LD6V.

bluej wrote: what's a zapper light? like a bug zapper? seems very odd, but I guess when you're modifying a lambo, anything goes.. thanks for sharing! please keep us updated!

Intended to be exposed after the hideaway plate goes away, and then blind supposed pursuant of vehicle. It's a really bright light that aims backward, or flashes/strobes, etc.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: berkeley it, that's it, I'm putting all my tools on craigslist. As if I didn't feel lame enough already compared to supercharged V8 Mercedes' builds, V8 Firefly's, LSx MG's etc now we have DIY lambo's. I am truly not worthy of this place anymore. Totally awesome build.

Haha I'm glad you like it. I was hesitant to post it for a while, since I tend to have a lot of social anxiety. That may sound odd, but I suppose that's why I spend most of my time in the garage, or on my computer playing racing games. I've been away from here quite a while so I have to ask, is "berkely it" an autocorrect for expletives, aka F-Bomb?

oldeskewltoy wrote: PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha ok I will get some pics of the head gasket later this evening for ya. Just a fair warning, it's horrendous.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson UltimaDork
6/18/15 11:58 a.m.
corsepervita wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote: berkeley it, that's it, I'm putting all my tools on craigslist. As if I didn't feel lame enough already compared to supercharged V8 Mercedes' builds, V8 Firefly's, LSx MG's etc now we have DIY lambo's. I am truly not worthy of this place anymore. Totally awesome build.

Haha I'm glad you like it. I was hesitant to post it for a while, since I tend to have a lot of social anxiety. That may sound odd, but I suppose that's why I spend most of my time in the garage, or on my computer playing racing games. I've been away from here quite a while so I have to ask, is "berkely it" an autocorrect for expletives, aka F-Bomb?

Yup, Berkley = F bomb. Bob Costas = P word slang for female genitalia. E36 M3 = S word and Shiney Happy Person = A hole.

You have to love someone with social anxiety owning a one of less than 500 80's Italian Supercar

corsepervita
corsepervita New Reader
6/18/15 12:05 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: Yup, Berkley = F bomb. Bob Costas = P word slang for female genitalia. E36 M3 = S word and Shiney Happy Person = A hole. You have to love someone with social anxiety owning a one of less than 500 80's Italian Supercar

LOL! I've seen a few forums use substitution words. Makes reading more entertaining.

turboswede
turboswede MegaDork
6/18/15 12:23 p.m.
corsepervita wrote:
Adrian_Thompson wrote: Yup, Berkley = F bomb. Bob Costas = P word slang for female genitalia. E36 M3 = S word and Shiney Happy Person = A hole. You have to love someone with social anxiety owning a one of less than 500 80's Italian Supercar

LOL! I've seen a few forums use substitution words. Makes reading more entertaining.

Yep. That is discussed in the Wiki

and that is why I started this thread after seeing the headline and I started chuckling.

The subsequent word play from the other posters has been quite enjoyable :)

corsepervita
corsepervita New Reader
6/19/15 2:48 a.m.
oldeskewltoy wrote: PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, pics as promised of said failed gaskets. The GOOD news.... is that cometic has already done head gaskets for a guy on these cars, already have the templates, and just need to know the bore size. So I can update it to modern materials when the time comes for that. But "just in case" I hunted down a NOS gasket for template purposes.

NOS gasket for comparison.

If you look at the open head, it's easy to see how the wrong coolant, long term exposure and aluminum would probably not get along well. It makes me wonder how many Jalpas are running around these days with these types of failures, slowly eating away at the heads, waiting for an imminent failure. A car was recently sold and apparently coolant was "coming out the exhaust" - I've been told that if the pitting becomes bad enough it can eat its way through the wall (for instance, causing coolant to leak into the exhaust, or combustion chamber, etc).

And of course, since those failed, this is the kind of pitting I'm dealing with on the heads. Which... it's repairable, but it's going to take some time. Still cheaper than buying a new head.

On a side note.. I found a picture of me comparing my hand to one of the pistons (Didn't have a banana handy).

tuna55
tuna55 UltimaDork
6/19/15 6:12 a.m.

I see a cross plane V8 with a square cut steel crank, pressed in wristpins on full skirted pistons in a two valve hemispherical combustion chamber. All very conventional. The open deck is a bit aggressive though. I am curious to get a better look at those heads.

Good deal about the head gasket. What does this thing use for bearings?

alfadriver
alfadriver UltimaDork
6/19/15 7:44 a.m.

The open deck is pretty italian for the time. All the Alfas had drop in liners in a very open deck block- which makes repairs REALLY easy (if you scored the liners or damaged the pistons).

I know Alfas suffered the same problems- but with more use, seemed to suffer it less- the Alfisti solution was to insert a sacrificial anode into the the head- just were a freeze plug would already be. Worked great. I'll have to look up the material sometime.

One detail that seemed to be commonly overlooked when rebuilding- the protrusion of the liners over the deck- which does two things- ensure the proper compression of the head gasket and properly load the liner barrel. Not sure if the Lambo has a spec- but while you have it in a shop- something good to check.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson UltimaDork
6/19/15 7:57 a.m.

I love the bravery of some people. No qualms about a rare exotic engine that parts may or may not be available for.

How many of these V8's were made for cars other than the Jalpa if you had needed a new head or something like that? What would a new used head have cost?

RossD
RossD PowerDork
6/19/15 8:53 a.m.

This is great! Feel free to treat (me at least) as a 3rd grader and 'show and tell' every obscure 'Lambo' feature. Like the tiny belt driving something shown here:

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson UltimaDork
6/19/15 9:04 a.m.

Smog pump?

84FSP
84FSP Reader
6/19/15 9:09 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: I love the bravery of some people. No qualms about a rare exotic engine that parts may or may not be available for. How many of these V8's were made for cars other than the Jalpa if you had needed a new head or something like that? What would a new used head have cost?

No doubt Adrian! Always impressed by the fearless GRM folks. As a guy that starts to get nervous when he gets the head off a motor much less the crazy build stuff executed broadly on the boards.

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy SuperDork
6/19/15 12:04 p.m.
corsepervita said: Good example is the valve seats have a giant lip

See what you mean.....

Had a similar issue in a Toyota head recently.... exhaust before....

.

.

and after...

I'm also hoping to see all the port work, and flowbench results...

t25torx
t25torx HalfDork
6/19/15 12:11 p.m.

Just 3 words. I hate you.

corsepervita
corsepervita New Reader
6/19/15 12:13 p.m.
tuna55 wrote: I see a cross plane V8 with a square cut steel crank, pressed in wristpins on full skirted pistons in a two valve hemispherical combustion chamber. All very conventional. The open deck is a bit aggressive though. I am curious to get a better look at those heads. Good deal about the head gasket. What does this thing use for bearings?

Unfortunately I've not found any cross referenced "direct fit" bearings and they are factory bearings. However, one builder claims that there are some Fiat bearings that will fit after a little bit of machining (the Fiat bearings are a pinch too wide). So instead of $60 per rod bearing, it's more like $100-200 for a set + minor machining.

The heads actually do not use any bearings, the camshafts slide into the head and are held in place by guide plates/"U Bolts".

Regarding more of the head, I found a few older pictures of when I was taking them off. The fasteners for the head studs are an odd 17mm nut that sits in a very thin, hard to get to area. This is a pic of the socket I had to grind down to nothing just to get to them. The small walls next to the cam lobes are where those sit.

Here's a better picture you can see to the right of one of them hiding.

alfadriver wrote: The open deck is pretty italian for the time. All the Alfas had drop in liners in a very open deck block- which makes repairs REALLY easy (if you scored the liners or damaged the pistons). I know Alfas suffered the same problems- but with more use, seemed to suffer it less- the Alfisti solution was to insert a sacrificial anode into the the head- just were a freeze plug would already be. Worked great. I'll have to look up the material sometime. One detail that seemed to be commonly overlooked when rebuilding- the protrusion of the liners over the deck- which does two things- ensure the proper compression of the head gasket and properly load the liner barrel. Not sure if the Lambo has a spec- but while you have it in a shop- something good to check.

Yeah, the block is actually pretty easy to take apart, it was the heads that were the giant pain in the butt. I have a factory engine repair manual with specs, I'll have to check and see what's recommended. The manual is mostly just engine specs, torque specs, tolerances, and enough to get it done. The tools they mention are pretty much hen's teeth, so making tools happens more often than not lol.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I love the bravery of some people. No qualms about a rare exotic engine that parts may or may not be available for. How many of these V8's were made for cars other than the Jalpa if you had needed a new head or something like that? What would a new used head have cost?

The Urraco and Silhouette shared some of the same parts. Gaskets and bits like that. The block was essentially mostly the same, but the Urraco was a single cam motor, the Jalpa a dual cam motor. The heads are completely different. All in all they made 410 Jalpas, so finding a spare engine anywhere is pretty hard.

The good news is that Lamborghini announced it was bringing back its vintage program, so they'll make anything for you. The bad news is that if you do need a head, they're almost $6,000 a pop.

Interestingly enough, it started as a timing belt run motor with the single cam setup from the Urraco. They were only a 2.0L v8 to start with and were 3.5L by the time the Jalpa came around.

With modern day machinery available, you can pretty much get anything made. A gentleman by the name of Jack Riddell who owns VintageLamborghini.com had the block to his v12 GT car break on him. He thought it was done. However, found a modern shop that took a laser scan of the good cylinders, weld repaired the broken portion of the block and then machined them to the exact spec of the good cylinders. I think he said it cost a couple grand to do, but couldn't even tell it had been repaired afterwards. Technology is great.

RossD wrote: This is great! Feel free to treat (me at least) as a 3rd grader and 'show and tell' every obscure 'Lambo' feature. Like the tiny belt driving something shown here:

Adrian is spot on. Air pump for emissions. That's a US model only thing. Also seen is a plastic cover which is the belt for the alternator and water pump.

The water pump goes the entire length of the block and sits on the top, held in by a gargantuan gasket and a lot of really fun 13mm nuts that are super fun to get to. It's a "feature". It's an odd design to me because I've never seen a water pump that big for such a small motor. It's also an odd place to me. I've heard of some people making blockoff plates for them and using more modern water pumps in a different location, but have yet to actually see the fabrication work of said projects. A lot of the guys who do their builds on these don't tend to really document it, so you "hear a lot of things" and rarely see them.

The timing chain assembly I thought was interesting, because the entire assembly comes off the front of the motor in a large piece. Pic of my buddy helping me take it off. The urraco didn't have that, and instead, had a large timing belt assembly.

The outside isn't too strange, it's more the way everything is put together that I found the most interesting. Usually with a DOHC motor it's 4 valves per cylinder. But it's literally a DOHC and each cam drives exhaust and the other drives fuel. I mean, if I put my little 2.0L engine out of my Porsche 924 next to one of the heads, it's easily probably 3/4 the size of that engine.

tuna55
tuna55 UltimaDork
6/19/15 12:22 p.m.

That water pump looks like a normal sized impeller stuck in a long housing with a long leader shaft to get it to the right spot.

tuna55
tuna55 UltimaDork
6/19/15 12:22 p.m.

Also, are the outer teeth on the cam gears worn to nubs or is that an illusion?

tuna55
tuna55 UltimaDork
6/19/15 12:40 p.m.

What is the displacement, bore, and can you weigh the pistons? I am very curious.

tuna55
tuna55 UltimaDork
6/19/15 12:41 p.m.

In reply to oldeskewltoy:

By the way OP, this guy is a head porter. I'll bet he'd love to get his mitts on these to play with them.

corsepervita
corsepervita New Reader
6/19/15 12:50 p.m.
tuna55 wrote: That water pump looks like a normal sized impeller stuck in a long housing with a long leader shaft to get it to the right spot.

The impeller is one thing, but the length of the housing is what got me when I saw it lol. The other issue is that it's cast aluminum... getting it off was challenging, since I did not want to break it, warp it, etc. The gasket simply did not want to let go. I kept coming back to it and would try and pry it up a little, come back a day later and shoot some solvent around it to weaken the RTV, then come back a day later and pry a little more. It eventually peeled off without breaking.

tuna55 wrote: Also, are the outer teeth on the cam gears worn to nubs or is that an illusion?

Nope, only the inner 2 teeth are used. I'm actually not entirely sure why they added a 3rd set of "teeth" on the outside, since it doesn't actually have a chain that runs on them, doesn't serve anything such as a hall effect, etc. Even the backside of the gears don't have a notching to fit it, so I don't really see a purpose for the 3rd set, though if anyone knows why they would do that, please enlighten me. The gears can only go on one way due to the machined spacing of the holes in them.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson UltimaDork
6/19/15 12:55 p.m.

Any pics of the engine next to anther engine we are all familiar with, or something to give us an idea of size.

Seriously if you needed it and were an open checkbook type restorer like many exotic owners then if you think about it $6K for a brand new head is actually dirt cheap. This isn't a small block Ford where the market for aftermarket heads is huge. Think, even a simple 8 valve pushrod head for something like a Ford Kent or MGB, both massively popular engines are $900-$1,000+ each and they probably sell hundreds or maybe even more. There were only ever 451 Jalpa's so given it's an OEM exotic manufacturer $6K seems very reasonable in RELATIVE terms.

corsepervita
corsepervita New Reader
6/19/15 12:58 p.m.
oldeskewltoy wrote:
corsepervita said: Good example is the valve seats have a giant lip

See what you mean.....

Had a similar issue in a Toyota head recently.... exhaust before....

.

.

and after...

I'm also hoping to see all the port work, and flowbench results...

Wow, nice! I will be certain to get all the numbers from my builder for before and after. Unfortunately I have to wait on the head pitting to be welded up first before we dive into all the fun stuff. He's currently assigned to jury duty so he's been busy. Hopefully he's almost done with that. The wait is killing me.

The factory claims 255hp but I've seen a Jalpa recently dyno'd that came in under 200hp. Not sure if that's due to running poorly, skewed numbers from the factory or what. Either way, given the room for improvement in many areas, I'm hoping to get the heads massaged and woken up to flow better. I think with moving to EFI and massaging the heads and moving to modern day materials, perhaps actually being closer to the factory number or more is realistic. I don't expect to make a super crazy horsepower motor, but improving would be nice.

corsepervita
corsepervita New Reader
6/19/15 1:02 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: Any pics of the engine next to anther engine we are all familiar with, or something to give us an idea of size. Seriously if you needed it and were an open checkbook type restorer like many exotic owners then if you think about it $6K for a brand new head is actually dirt cheap. This isn't a small block Ford where the market for aftermarket heads is huge. Think, even a simple 8 valve pushrod head for something like a Ford Kent or MGB, both massively popular engines are $900-$1,000+ each and they probably sell hundreds or maybe even more. There were only ever 451 Jalpa's so given it's an OEM exotic manufacturer $6K seems very reasonable in RELATIVE terms.

Not right now I don't. But next time I visit the machine shop, I'll put the heads next to a chevy motor or something so you can see what I mean. The engine is on a stand at the moment. I do have a spare block still floating around my garage (I think) from one of my 2.0L 924 motors, so once the block is off the stand I'll put it next to it and do a comparison.

I should be bringing him the block this weekend or next. So I can probably just put the whole assembly next to another block so you can get a comparison size. Also more than happy to snag some pics at request if anyone has any picture requests.

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