In reply to exST165 :
The infamous copper corolla,knew nothing when I started that thing....learned lots over 9 yrs with it.
I haven't autocrossed in a couple yrs myself,building an awd 2 door justy with a bike engine now and hope to have it running before the end of autox season to drag it out for a driveline test.
Didn’t you already have a bike engined AWD ice racer? Suzuki Swift?
Some more progress was made last weekend. Hockey is done, another season of speed skating is over so I might actually get some garage time on the weekends! Fabricated the beam to jack up the car by the centre, dolly for the engine cradle is almost finished and a skateboard ramp was build with my little guy.
pics to follow.
Engine is out so I need to post the mandatory picture standing in the engine bay.
Tearing down the motor is slow going as I’ve never tackled anything like this. Question for the brain trust: do you need to remove the timing chain cover on a Quad 4 motor to remove the cam housings?
The instructions I’m using only say you have to remove the four bolts from behind the intake and exhaust sprockets but the pictures of removing the cam housings the timing chain housing has been removed.
So I followed the instructions but I can’t get the cam housing off. It is separating but it is hung up at the timing chain cover. Pictures imply it needs to be pulled up and off but it has to go back to get out from under the timing chain cover and I don’t know it that will damage anything, it doesn’t seem to want to pull back.
Thanks in advance!
You know the Song Take the long way home, If they aren't in the pic the you should go ahead and do it too, but they may be off for pictures lol
I got the timing chain cover off after wrestling with the water pump and four bolts holding the oil pan onto the housing. both the cam housings came off easily after I removed the timing chain housing.
And then on to the head bolts. 5 out of 10 (so half) are seized solid. Breaker bar and 4’ extension just slipped off. Impact gun just made noise on all but two where it looks like it is spinning because the heads are rounded off.
Trying to stay up beat but the idea of drilling out five bolts scares me. Two stuck bolts are on the end not under the cam housing so I could have at them with an angle grinder but what happens after the head is off and there will be these five stud like things seized in the block .....
Do Not Freak Out!!!!!!!!!. First ALWAYS Turn A Bolt that has been stressed in the direction of TIGHT , Just a Bump, even Whack the pull Bar with a Hammer, your just Trying to break the Corrosion crust(if you will) then try to loosen . Now to the problem. there is a set of reverse Fluted socket head ......Sockets to remove bolts that have this problem. Home Depot and auto stores Next chore is to chase ALL those bolt holes That's an Aluminum block right. If they are buggered in any way get ready to Heli-coil it. But that's O K. If it wasn't a Challenge car there is a Kit for N*'s that also Upgrades the Bolts , but is Pricey
Love this! It will be great having y'all at the challenge!
So there is some good news and some bad news. The good news is that the bolts aren’t rounded off, the sockets were slipping because I was using a 19 mm socket. Those who have experience with GM motors will know exactly where I’m going with this. That 17 mm socket rom my deluxe socket set was too small and the next size up (19 mm) in half inch drive did. Who knew that GM used 18 mm bolts and yet socket set manufacturers don’t include 18 mm sockets in sized big enough for people with breaker bars and four foot pipe extensions. IE not 3/8”.
So the bad news is that I’m clueless enough to think a 19 mm socket fits a 18 mm bolt. Live and learn.
So now that I have the head off what do I see? Cylinder number 3 looks sketchy
Taking a look at the head gasket it doesn’t look blown to me, but hey I tried using a 19 mm socket on those head bolts
And the other side
The cylinder bores look a bit rough, this is the worst of what I saw cylinder number three again but at least no vertical scoring.
Now on to the cylinder head. It has cracks in cylinder 2 and 3 in between the intake and exhaust valves and between the spark plug and exhaust valves:
Started pulling valves to get a better look and see if the cracks can be repaired. To quote my son “it looks like a unicorn barfed in there”
Forgot to mention, it took the better part of a roll of paper towels and high powered degreaser to get the head’s clean enough to inspect them. And those expensive blue shop towels not those wimpy kitchen paper towels!
So more scrubbing and I don’t see any propagation of the cracks between the intake and exhaust valves:
The crack between the spark plug and exhaust valve is a different story:
So what says to the brain trust? Is this head cracked? Can it be fixed? I have a friend with a TIG welder willing to give it a shot but I don’t see how those cracks can be fixed as I don’t see how they could be leaking. Where is the water jacket relative to those cracks?
if it can’t be fixed I see three options:
- buy a replacement head and reassemble. Local wrecker might, or eBay or a dedicated reseller.
- sell the quad 4 motor for scrap and get something else from the wrecker that will bolt up to the Getrag/Muncie transmission I have.
- swing for the fences an get something like a Northstar or 3800 SC.
My assumption had been that if the head was cracked I would have to toss the Quad4. But it would not be well regarded by my wife if I brought home ANOTHER project car to dismantle.
Tthoughts?
Swing for the fences!
yea a 19 will fit an 18, loosely. that head is done, it's value won't allow for repairs, 95ish 3.1 and 3.4 are the easy swap after that fly wheels and clutches come into play. every swap that is on PENNOCKS can be found in great detail, find a tottalled car that has a good engine/ running great when wrecked. I was hoping to see the Q4.
The easy fix, would be finding another head, if a good one can be found.
The creative fix would be to repair the head, not sure if it could be welded without first removing the valve seats near the cracks. There was another guy here that repaired the aluminum heads on the v-8 lambo project. After the welding there would be some re-work to reshape the aluminum and rethread the spark plug hole. How hard could it be anyhow......
Well you learn something new every day, in this case it is that valve seats are pressed in. I was surprised that in the above photos the cracks in the heads didn’t propagate through the valve seat.
There are heads available online but they seem to be beyond Challenge budget but I’ll keep looking!
I used to be on a quad 4 forum when I was driving one and it was quite good for parts but I just tried to check it out and got this
Reported Attack Page!
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Yes it could be fixed through welding, but will require some expensive machining to get the deck surface flat again, the plug holes tapped again, and the valve seat back to whatever shape they need to be. Not sure that's possible on a $2018 budget, unless you happen to be a machinist. I would look for a new head.
Suprf1y,
yeah I wish the Quad 4 forum situation is disappointing. You can get around that block but those are some scary warnings.
Does anyone think that the head is actually okay and that those cracks are superficial?
Unless there are any brilliant ideas for shade tree repair I’m going to search for a replacement head from a wrecking yard. The big one local to me doesn’t have anything in there online parts.
Seriously that head is beyond spending time OR money on, but HEY with enough of BOTH it can be repaired. Outside guess 800.00 if you know someone . Would you like to see it better, find a pot big enough to immerse the whole head in boiling water for about 10 min. you'll think you could fall into those cracks. or take it to a good machine shop, let them break you.
Phoned a local wrecker and they searched their database and there are no replacement head’s anywhere in Ontario. Their only suggestion was to try pick and pulls as their inventory isn’t on the master database. I’ve done that and no luck even trying to find potential candidate.
i think I need to widen my search to all Quad 4 motors not just the hot LG0 variation.
I’m also thinking I should tear down the rest of the block. If the bottom end is in rough shape too then there might not be enough of the motor left to salvage on a Challenge budget.
wipe the top of the cylinder's good and rotate the crank some with some oil, clean that up and post pictures of the bores, need to see around the bores that you have questions about.
you have a nation wide( ours not yours lol) search team here just ask!
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