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Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
4/22/20 10:29 a.m.

also, can the stock upper intake 'flip' so it comes up from the side of the motor instead of across the top? Might leave the DOHC inline 6 sightlines a bit more open, and certainly pegs the unconventional meter.

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
4/22/20 10:44 a.m.

Stock intake does not flip unfortunately. 

2 years ago I DID have this engine running on this frame, stock harness and ECU strewn about on the garage floor. So I'm not very worried about N/A with stock ECU.

Patrick - I'm going to MS it only when I turbo it. I can run it on stock ECU for now if I keep it stock N/A. I agree though, if I MS it for any reason, might as well go full boar and turbo/ITB it.

Nohome - I know N/A would plenty. I'm not really after power here, it's more of an exercise in stupid engineering to make me happy.

mblommel
mblommel Dork
4/22/20 10:55 a.m.

Another vote for getting it running with the stock engine configuration for shakedown. 

You've done an amazing amount of work already. As a person who is prone to scope creep I would do things differently on a couple of my projects if I could go back in time. Most notably get them running, then sort out details, then upgrade. 

bluej (Forum Supporter)
bluej (Forum Supporter) UberDork
4/22/20 11:31 a.m.

woah!  I love the engine build plans, especially since I'm in the middle of trying to finalize my own build with ITB's and a turbo using an MS2.

 

I think there's some sense to getting it running and moving before trying for the whole enchilada, but I would consider starting with the turbos and not the ITB's. Then you're only doing exhaust packaging once, and you'll have a baseline of how the combo is running before moving towards figuring out the ITB setup. 

hobiercr (FS)
hobiercr (FS) SuperDork
4/22/20 1:04 p.m.

What if you did all the mods to the head/block/pan needed to incorporate turbos, switch it over to custom harness and MS and run it as is/NA for shakedown. Then, as you develop the ITB, triple turbo, etc., set up, all you will have to do is swap intakes/exhaust and retune the MS for the different configuration?

Also wondering if the W58 can handle that amount of power. 

AWSX1686 (Forum Supporter)
AWSX1686 (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
4/23/20 9:03 a.m.

For most people, I would say get it running N/A first, but we know you'll get it done, so go for the turbos. 

bluej (Forum Supporter)
bluej (Forum Supporter) UberDork
4/23/20 6:34 p.m.

Been thinking about this build today, and I really love the direction you've been letting yourself go towards with it. It seems like you're really having fun, and how that shows through makes it more fun to follow along

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
4/23/20 9:24 p.m.

In reply to bluej (Forum Supporter) :

I really am having so much fun with this. I don't even watch TV anymore, I just go outside and let my imagination run wild.

More details about the possible (probable) ITB conversion. I got a closer look with the intakes taken apart, and the port spacing will definitely work. Each ITB is free to move a little bit along the throttle shaft. Some differences in the ports though. The Toyota ports are oval with a cutout for the injector. The BMW ports are normal oval. I also measured them:

Toyota port size: 47mm x 27mm

BMW port size: 52mm x 34mm

So the BMW ports are roughly 2.5mm bigger in every direction. A machined adapter is probably the path forward, but that would pull the BMW injectors further from the valves by the thickness of the adapter. Or some SERIOUS custom head work to blend the ports together and transfer the bolt pattern. Or I could slice the Toyota lower intake a couple inches from the head, keep the Toyota fuel rail, and weld on a plate for the ITB's to bolt to. I also have no idea what the runner lengths will do for performance. Whatever I do, it probably won't be for a while. The body is a much bigger obstacle to driving this thing.

GoLucky
GoLucky Reader
4/23/20 10:36 p.m.

Could you chop both intakes apart and weld the two different halves together? 

TVR Scott (Forum Supporter)
TVR Scott (Forum Supporter) Dork
4/24/20 7:37 a.m.

Seems like an adaptor plate for the new ITB setup would get the job done.  You could port the adaptor to smoothly transition from the head to the ITB's.

bluej (Forum Supporter)
bluej (Forum Supporter) UberDork
4/24/20 7:48 a.m.

How much work would it take to get your 3D printer set up to handle polycarbonate or nylon? 

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
4/24/20 10:35 a.m.

In reply to bluej (Forum Supporter) :

It's not mine, it's a printer at work. I could probably get a prototype house to do it for $$. But I also have a machine shop at work, so I could buy a chunk of billet or big block of plastic and go from there.

bluej (Forum Supporter)
bluej (Forum Supporter) UberDork
4/24/20 10:56 a.m.

There are other folks around here who'd probably print you one, or at least a mockup piece in another plastic if it ends up being a route you're interested in pursuing.

84FSP
84FSP SuperDork
4/24/20 11:08 a.m.

Please make some of these - maybe more old school varying length?

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
4/29/20 8:24 p.m.

I've been waiting on the tools and parts for the oil pan turbo drain mod, so I stripped down the engine and gave it a paint job.

I couldn't just leave that cheesy half-ass rattle can paint on the valve covers, so off they came. I couldn't decide what color yet, so I kept cleaning, and cleaning, and...

...one headlight restoration kit later...

Also here's an itty-bitty 1JZ-GTE turbo, known as the CT12a.

bgkast (Forum Supporter)
bgkast (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
4/29/20 9:00 p.m.

I tenth the suggestion to get it driving, then go for MS, ITBs and turbo. I also personally would skip the turbos and leave those beautiful throttle bodies exposed.

 

I love the 3D printed tube clamps, I am planning something similar for my build. Glad to see the concept works!

RobDelia
RobDelia New Reader
5/2/20 9:05 p.m.

I am going to disagree with the idea of not adding the turbos now.

Several reasons: the first one is, you may find that the frame needs some mods. Large or small, much easier to do now.

The second and much more important one, is the body may pose issues.

If you go ahead with the project without the turbos and then run into major (or minor) problems...

The whole project will be stalled. Don't do that. Why? Perfectly selfish reasons! I want to see the finished rod!

Thanks anyway, for the inspiration and the distraction.

Rob

 

basketofkittens
basketofkittens
5/2/20 9:36 p.m.

Long time lurker here. Felt compelled to register to throw yet another opinion in the mix.

I helped my brother install a set of E46 ITBs on a Volvo straight six with a single turbo in his 242. Photo evidence: https://i.imgur.com/ay0tPuEh.jpg

It's installed with a lobotomized and reverse rotating BMW S65 e-throttle actuator and everything is controlled by a Link G4+ Xtreme ECU.

 

Now after having done it, we both regret it. I know it won't get you any instagram points, but a single throttle body is the way to go. The ITBs with a turbo makes driveability calibration very difficult. With a cable throttle I suspect it would be near impossible to get the engine to behave well at anything but full load.

I'll ask him to chime in with more details.

lateline
lateline New Reader
5/3/20 2:59 p.m.
basketofkittens said:

Long time lurker here. Felt compelled to register to throw yet another opinion in the mix.

I helped my brother install a set of E46 ITBs on a Volvo straight six with a single turbo in his 242. Photo evidence: https://i.imgur.com/ay0tPuEh.jpg

It's installed with a lobotomized and reverse rotating BMW S65 e-throttle actuator and everything is controlled by a Link G4+ Xtreme ECU.

 

Now after having done it, we both regret it. I know it won't get you any instagram points, but a single throttle body is the way to go. The ITBs with a turbo makes driveability calibration very difficult. With a cable throttle I suspect it would be near impossible to get the engine to behave well at anything but full load.

I'll ask him to chime in with more details.

I'm the brother referred to here. Here's a link to my project thread on turbobricks where some of this work is detailed: https://forums.turbobricks.com/showpost.php?p=5948298&postcount=307

I would strongly recommend against installing those itb's on your engine unless you like dealing with near endless driveability issues. The only reason I could get my car to behave reasonably well on tip-in and tip-out is the e-throttle and idle valve blending strategy. Basically the first 5% of accelerator pedal travel the butterflies are completely closed and engine is being throttled by the idle valve. There are only a handful of ECU's out there that can actually do this with any degree of success and I would not consider the Link G4+ I have as particularly good at it. I've seen people implement work-arounds, like running 0 degrees of timing at idle, which brutalizes engine torque and can jack your idle EGT through the roof. Not something I would recommend either.

I'm planning a cylinder head upgrade on the car in the medium term and at that point I will convert back to single throttle body and the ITB's will go in the garbage. It was a fun tinkering exercise to get them on the engine but the headaches with load tuning and driveability were 100% not worth it. 

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
5/3/20 4:51 p.m.

Thanks for the input. I'm pretty curious about the tuning strategy. I'm not familiar with the Link, but I was planning to use Megasquirt with blend mode, which allows you to blend between an Alpha-N table (TPS and RPM only) to speed density (MAP and RPM) as boost and speed build. I have heard many driveability issues arise from trying to use only speed density, which it sounds like you might have been running?

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) SuperDork
5/3/20 5:39 p.m.

I finally did the thing with the oil pan. This took a lot longer than I'd like to admit, but it's done. Most of the time was spent cleaning the mating surfaces to apply some fresh Toyota FIPG since they didn't use pan gaskets on this engine. And there's two pans. 

There's that legendary bottom end. Hopefully no bugs crawled up inside during the several hours I had the pan off.

This AN-10 fitting has a built-in o-ring on the back. The studs and nuts are Toyota P/N's. On the 2JZ-GE pan, the drain hole and studs threads are simply not machined, but the casting is still there. However you have to drill through the pan, which means metal shavings, so that's why the pan came off. I've seen a write-up on how to do this without dropping the pan, going very slowly with a greased bit. That seems a little risky to me. For now it's capped off.

I'm glad I did this now because I found out for certain the upper pan will not come off with the engine installed. Not enough clearance to the cross-member.

JoeyM
JoeyM Mod Squad
5/3/20 6:01 p.m.

I love the Z on your frame.  That's going to sit nice and low.

ntsqd
ntsqd New Reader
5/7/20 4:40 p.m.

My prognostication is that your W trans will work for a while, like until the first time it really hooks up under full boost, and then you're going to be looking for the R series (R-150?) manual trans supplied behind the 7M-GTE's or similar. The W's aren't necessarily wimpy (you need an L or G series to get that), but the R's are stronger.

threecyl
threecyl None
5/7/20 5:24 p.m.

The W box will be fine with those tyres

MrChaos
MrChaos SuperDork
5/7/20 5:28 p.m.
ntsqd said:

My prognostication is that your W trans will work for a while, like until the first time it really hooks up under full boost, and then you're going to be looking for the R series (R-150?) manual trans supplied behind the 7M-GTE's or similar. The W's aren't necessarily wimpy (you need an L or G series to get that), but the R's are stronger.

r-154.

 

everyone is going to nissan cd09/0009/etc since they are cheap and nissan still makes them

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