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TurnerX19
TurnerX19 HalfDork
7/1/19 11:16 p.m.

I have never had a car with a neutral safety switch. Every time I get in someones Miata it won't start because I never step on the clutch while cranking. I think it would kill the crankshaft thrust washers on some of the cars I have owned! Just wire it so it thinks it is in neutral all the time.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/2/19 12:16 a.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

True... all of my more modern cars have a neutral safety switch, but it's kind of a big no-no when starting my Triumphs (which do have somewhat weak thrust washers) so with those I have to remember not to put the clutch in when starting.

JoeTR6
JoeTR6 Dork
7/2/19 7:25 a.m.

A neutral safety switch just perpetuates the bad habit of pushing in the clutch when starting.  Not having one will certainly remind a driver to put the gearbox in neutral first.  My MSM has the FM clutch switch clamp, and its thrust washers are happier for it.  Kudos for getting everything in place.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair MegaDork
7/2/19 8:13 a.m.

apology for slight threadjack

how long do you guys think is acceptable / unacceptable for crankshaft thrust bearing wear?  and what is your data source for linking "clutch disengaged during start" to thrust bearing wear?   i've had a lot of manual trans cars over 200k miles on original bottom ends with no evidence of unacceptable thrust bearing wear, from big block chevys to D-series hondas and a lot of points between.  long before neutral safety switches i was taught to disengage clutch before starting because it reduces the amount of stuff the starter has to spin.  i'd be willing to bet that sitting at a light with the trans in gear and the clutch disengaged is a significantly larger contributor to thrust bearing wear.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
7/2/19 8:45 a.m.

Well, where I am now is kind of frustrating.

The car is back together, but I cant send a start signal to the starter because the signal wire goes into the tunnel below the heater plenum. That sucker is buried in there. The AOD had a switch that closed in neutral and sent the signal to the starter .

 

The original plan was to short the two wires in the tunnel and maybe even go with no neutral safety ( Hey the MGB does not have one).

BUT while sliding the rivetrain back in the hole, I managed to snag the neutral safety and reverse light harness that enters the tunnel . Did I mention that the dash want removing for proper repair of this berkeley-up? I do not want to do that.

At a minimum, I need to find the ends of the starter signal wires and solder them together. Then fix the reverse light wiring that still needs to be in the tunnel. As luck would have it, out of four wires ( two for each circuit) I managed to break one for the reverse lights and one for the starter signal.

 

Pete

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
7/2/19 8:55 a.m.

Dang. Sorry to hear that! You've been moving fast on this manual swap though.

I'd be hesitant to hand a new manual transmission driver a car with no clutch interlock. I don't know about your wife, but a setback like, say, smashing your lovingly restored Volvo into the front of the garage when trying to start it could sour things on the car for a long time.

I think thrust bearing wear concerns are overstated for a relatively modern (for certain definitions of modern) and robust engine like a 302.

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
7/2/19 9:35 a.m.

This car has a Ford 302 in it.  Comparisons to Triumphs with weak thrust bearings seem misplaced.  I think I would rather not ask the starter to swing more parts around than it has to during the start sequence + it's just safer anyway.

Also not my project,  just my two cents.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
7/2/19 10:00 a.m.

In reply to dculberson :

The speed of this swap is largely due to one of the Pete's AKA "Mustang Pete".  In order to make this happen:

Mustang JUST finished getting his latest Fox body running with a  T5 302. Then the  the AOD went DOA.

 

So Mustang Pete pulls a C4 out of his shed, rebuilds it thinking we will toss the C4 in the Molvo and change the rear gear at a later date.

 

But, then Mustang  decides he wants a 351 torque monster in the Fox and since he has the parts laying around ( picture Aladdin's cave, only with Ford V8 E36 M3) he puts one together but he knows the T5 wont stand up to the torque so he decides he will use the  C4 in the Fox  and the T5 in the Molvo.  So he yanks the 302/T5 out of the Fox, we rip the 302/AOD out of the Molvo. Then I figure how to do the hydraulic clutch with Monster Miata parts but Martin does not seem to answer his phone anymore so since time was of the essence, I have to figure and piece together my own E36 M3 and get all the parts. ( this saved me about $200 Usd and a couple of weeks of waiting)  Then we bolt it all up, toss it in and sort the details as they come up.

 

Funny you mention the drive-into-the-wall thing. The AOD failed in such a way that it would have done exactly that if it had not been on axle stands when it welded the forward clutch pack together. Park became drive and the pawl was somehow no longer in the equation. Since we were working on the assumotion that the issues were engine related, most starting was done with the engine in park by just reaching in the window and turning the key...the Fitech does start at the first cranksurprise

 

My thoughts on the neutral switch are that FOR ME... no big deal.But for a new driver and an EFI that seems to fire the engine at the first suggestion of a starter crank, I would be concerned that the car would more than just lurch forward.

AxeHealey
AxeHealey Reader
7/2/19 1:55 p.m.

Yet another little bump in the road for the Molvo. You'll power through it!

Maybe it's just me, but I think the first thing I was taught about driving a manual trans was that you get in and make sure it's in neutral before anything else. Safety switch or not.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
7/2/19 2:38 p.m.

In reply to AxeHealey :

Well yeah...seems prudent

But you  don't have to sleep next to your instructor!

 

Pete

 

759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
7/2/19 3:34 p.m.

Uh ......she heard that.......wink

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
7/2/19 4:30 p.m.

In reply to 759NRNG :

I wonder if I can hire out the "driving a standard" lessons to a driving school. Course I would want them to teach her in the actual MOLVO so that I don't have to doit all over again, so that might be an issue.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr UberDork
7/2/19 5:34 p.m.
NOHOME said:

In reply to 759NRNG :

I wonder if I can hire out the "driving a standard" lessons to a driving school. Course I would want them to teach her in the actual MOLVO so that I don't have to doit all over again, so that might be an issue.

Very easy way to teach a standard.

 

Don't tell them to use the accelerator.  Just get the car rolling with the clutch.  After doing this a bazillion times on uphill, flats, and downhill, then get into the shifting.  Easy peasy.

AxeHealey
AxeHealey Reader
7/2/19 6:09 p.m.
NOHOME said:

In reply to AxeHealey :

Well yeah...seems prudent

But you  don't have to sleep next to your instructor!

 

Pete

 

Hah! Very true.

mannydantyla
mannydantyla Reader
7/3/19 1:02 a.m.

My comment on the Neutral Safety Switch: I'm reminded of the time my brother was having some engine work done to his Honda rice machine by a friend (this happened shortly after the first Fast and Furious, mind you). Friend called him and told him to come over and pick it up. He get's to the driveway and uses his remote starter to start the car - which needed the NSS removed to make that work. But the friend doing the engine swap had put the manual transmission into 2nd gear instead of using the parking break, and so the car cranked forward and drove itself into the garage door and caused $1000 in damage. Lucky it didn't go the other direction and crush somebody or something. (And yes my brother is an idiot).

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/3/19 7:23 a.m.
NOHOME said:

In reply to 759NRNG :

I wonder if I can hire out the "driving a standard" lessons to a driving school. Course I would want them to teach her in the actual MOLVO so that I don't have to doit all over again, so that might be an issue.

IMHO, having driven a fair variety of manual transmission cars over the decades, if you want to teach her (and more importantly, she wants to learn), then go buy a used '99-03 Jetta TDI.  They are by far the easiest manual transmission cars I've driven.  Basically, because with so much off-idle torque they are very forgiving.  It will go from 1st through 5th gear at idle without touching the "go pedal" in about 5 mph increments and without any real hardship on the clutch (the 329K miles on my OE clutch is a testament to that).

When you're done, sell it for what you paid for it (before it breaks or needs a timing belt).

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
7/3/19 7:46 a.m.

In reply to Ian F :

There are currently 5 cars in the fleet, 4 of which are mine. If I so much mention buying another car, the Molvo thing will become the least of my troubles.surprise 

The challenge car was tolerated because she really does not belive it will make it back from FL.

Mrs NOHOME is not a total newbie to the manual gear world, more a case of she has resisted driving such vehicles mostly cause of the hill thing. If we ca get over that, we should be fine.

Pete

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair MegaDork
7/3/19 8:35 a.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

A functioning hand-operated parking brake can be useful to prevent roll-back when starting off on an uphill.  Relieves some of the OMG of getting brake foot to throttle while releasing clutch.

759NRNG
759NRNG SuperDork
7/3/19 8:36 a.m.

It's a good thing the two of you aren't in Birmingham Al. area......running the 'V' (6m) around those hills was an experience for sure....alotta ebrake at intersections wink

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
7/3/19 9:20 a.m.

I was never taught the hand-brake method for not rolling back. I've tried a couple of times just for curiosity but it seems counter-intuitive. The only person I grew up with who drove a stick regularly was my father and he never did that either.  

My father wasn't a great teacher and in the end I taught myself driving a '82 Subaru that had an interesting "hill-holder" function that somehow mechanically interlocked the brake to the clutch pedal. Stop, hold the brake, put the clutch in, release the brake, and as long as the clutch is held down the brake will hold. It was great learning tool, although eventually my timing became instinctual enough that I stopped using it.  The Subie was traded in back in 1990 and none of my vehicles since have had anything similar, but these days I rarely roll back at all or stall.  Usually happens when I actually "think" about being on a hill. Otherwise it's just muscle-memory. 

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
7/3/19 9:31 a.m.

In reply to Ian F :

Usually happens when I actually "think" about being on a hill. Otherwise it's just muscle-memory. 

This is the truth. Even today, I can psych myself out if I pause to think about it. 

She will either get it or not, and I will adjust accordingly. Worse case scenario I drive it all the time... devil Her 85 year old Mom is itching to take it for a drive, so maybe that will shame Mrs NOHOME into getting with the program.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
7/8/19 7:40 a.m.

The Molvo ate the T5!

surprise

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 HalfDork
7/8/19 7:42 a.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

How many burnouts?

Samebutdifferent
Samebutdifferent New Reader
7/8/19 7:46 a.m.

...This can't be good.  crying

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
7/8/19 8:05 a.m.

Do you mean broke, or swallowed sense?

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