Volvo P1800ES...kinda

In reply to NOHOME:

Could you shoehorn in the Paco Motorsports lift kit?

maschinenbau wrote: In reply to NOHOME: Could you shoehorn in the Paco Motorsports lift kit?

That would be interesting would it not?

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Sorry to go back to the floor again when you’ve managed to move on, but I’m on catch up with the thread. This build is so far beyond my ability, skills, time or patience that I feel guilty even commenting. But let’s assume in some parallel universe I had 1/10th your competence and commitment I’d 100% be going with wood in the back. I’d skip the spare tire altogether as I think you’ve decided, but I’d still have a lockable access hatch where it currently sits. Then I’d go for one of the ‘fake’ Teak yacht deck products with stainless steel edging for the hatch and surround so you can’t see the end grain.

I can dig

Today's update is titled "Reality Sucks."

The plan as of last night was to do a couple of quick repairs to the bottom of the front fenders, wire wheel some surface rust off a few spots, and undercoat the front clip with gravel-guard by the end of the week-end.

Turns out the simple fender repair was not that simple!

It LOOKED simple. I mean just a few pinholes right?

Well, the hole got bigger Yeah, it is the other side)

What I had not budgeted into the project was the fact that the fenders were too floppy to work with. So after a beer or five the rocker panel emulator was conceived, designed and executed.

So, that worked well (realizing that I had already failed at the first patch panel without the emulator) and using the cheapo sheet-metal brake and the e-wheel with the soft upper wheel as described previously, I managed to make a credible repair.

Not quite "metal finished" but good enough for the girls that go with me. Tomorrow I hope to get the other side done.

The culmination of the front clip work is that I can then re-attach it to the shell. That will be a huge mental milestone for me.

164 days left before first drive.

Bjornagn, You magnificent bastidge. I always love to see the progress.

wheelsmithy wrote: Bjornagn, You magnificent bastidge. I always love to see the progress.

Thanks...Dare I ask if your Bugeye is getting any love?

In reply to NOHOME:

Alas, no. Everything is packed away, I am having little luck with the transition to the next job/house/town/shop... So, I'm trolling all over the internet. Way too much time on my hands. I'm following the heck out of your build, and damn near anything else I can dig up on line.

Don't stop believing.

Bit more progress.

Got the other lower fender done: Like to say it was easier, but it still put up a fight.

Got a good run at sealing off the space between the Volvo and the Miata engine compartments. I had thought about leaving this open for cooling reasons, but figure that it will be easier to control fumes if I close it off. It is about to get tricky as I now have to make this work with the front sheetmetal on the Volvo front clip where the rad resides. I am sure that will be easy

And for those sheet-metal working fans out there, I will mention what might be my most used application of the E-wheel. Normally, an E-wheel does it's thing by squishing the tin and forcing it to rise in a dome shape. So, if you feed in a long narrow piece of tin, you end up with a curved bicycle fender shape. What if you just wanted to put a simple curve in the sheet? You could try and bend it over a pipe, and we have all done that with various degrees of success.

What I do is use a soft face on the upper wheel. A thick piece of inner tube would work, but I had a piece of foam and used that.

The way it works is that the soft surface cant squeeze the steel so no shape is put into the metal. What it does instead is force the steel into the shape of the lower wheel. This is a very controllable way to put a curve into a piece of tin.

It is getting to the point where I need to start fitting the front clip so I can attend to the details.

162 days to go

So, need advice from the AC experts since I am not one of those.

I am rapidly reaching the point where I need to hang radiator and AC condenser.

I do have a Miata condenser. I also have the Miata evaporator.

The minion is trying to convince me that a larger condenser will help with the fact that the Miata is a smaller car than the Volvo wagon. He has offered up a condenser from a Lincoln town car.

I have my concerns as to how this all balances out?

Miata versus Lincoln condenser

It is a thick bastard eh?

R134a or R12?

I can't see any reason why larger would not be better, especially if it's a R134a conversion. Are you using a 302 compressor or adapting the Miata unit?

Run_Away wrote: R134a or R12? I can't see any reason why larger would not be better, especially if it's a R134a conversion. Are you using a 302 compressor or adapting the Miata unit?

Ford compressor so as to keep the front accessories simple and in the same family.

Can you see what size aftermarket systems like Vintage air use? What age was the Town car? It could be a pretty old inefficient system? Also while the Volvo is certainly larger than a Miata, it's still considerably smaller than the Town car. Finally, I hate to say it, but you live in Canada not Southern Florida or Texas in Summer so it won't have to work as hard as a Miami livery Town car in August. Non of this is meant to be useful facts, more like thought starters.

Note. I'm not a million miles from you in London being in SE Mi, so I have some experience of similar weather patterns.

Just went through completely removing the Volvo HVAC system in my 242 when I put the LS3 in, and replacing it with a Classic Auto Air system. General rules of thumb -- larger condenser never hurts -- more heat rejected there just allows the system to cycle a bit more, less compressor run time. However, larger greenhouse and physical space to cool requires more evaporator and more freon flow. And more evaporator pulling heat out of the greenhouse requires more condenser exchanging heat and, eventually, more compressor flow. Here in the S.E. USA, heat load in the summer is significant -- so, I got tired of Volvo's early 80's insufficient A/C. Up there -- may not be much of an issue for you. So the Miata evap may be enough. In any event, I'd fit the largest condenser that will fit, and be sure it's sitting flat against the rad so your fan is pulling air acrossit under all circumstances. I'd also switch to a newer Sanden compressor. Much smaller and more efficient than the Ford unit. I had the Ford unit on the 5.0L motor that was in mine before the LS3. That compressor with the Ford condenser and the stock Volvo OEM evaporator was marginal at cooling the 242.

Biggest evaporator you can fit. Parallel flow as well. Also, go sanden. There should be a bolt in to the 5.0 accessories.

NOHOME wrote: The minion is trying to convince me that a larger condenser will help with the fact that the Miata is a smaller car than the Volvo wagon. He has offered up a condenser from a Lincoln town car.

How much does that thing weigh? Why add extra mass way out there on the nose of the car? I can see going for a slightly larger one based on the larger Molvo greenhouse but that may be overkill.

I'd bet the Molvo has more cu/ft than a Town Car.

If I'm not mistaken, evaporator core selection is more important than condensers. However, I imagine the Miata condenser is going to be more efficient.

mblommel wrote: How much does that thing weigh?

All of the Ford, Volvo and aftermarket condensers I've messed with are aluminum -- not much weight, nor much delta in weight from bigger ones to smaller ones. And let's face it - once you've decided to add or keep A/C, you've committed yourself to dealing with extra weight on the front of the car.

Crackers wrote: I'd bet the Molvo has more cu/ft than a Town Car. If I'm not mistaken, evaporator core selection is more important than condensers.

The area behind the back seat may well make up the difference in depth, height and width (TC wins that battle); but the bigger issue, I think, is the greenhouse and the V8 generating heat under the hood. In any event, that entire cabin doesn't have to be cooled. As a practical matter if you can keep the two front seat/areas/occupants cool, you've done the job. As you and I have both alluded to, I suspect the Miata evaporator may get the job done.

Evaporator and condenser are equally important. One has to remove heat/moisture from the interior and the other has to reject that same heat to the atmosphere.

Evaporator and condenser are equally important. One has to remove heat/moisture from the interior and the other has to reject that same heat to the atmosphere.

As an engineering type, that seems intuitive and why I ask. Minimizing cost is obvious, but what I don't have insight into is the effect of an increased volume of refrigerant in the system. Today's engineers don't leave a lot of room in the margins to muck about casually.

I considered going with an all-new Vintage air install, but that moves off the path of using the Miata panel mounted controls to do what they have always done.

In this case I think what you have to ask yourself (and perhaps, SWMBO) is this: Is climate control that actually works more important than making a relatively minor aesthetic adjustment to the interior. I was more than happy to remove the plate that housed Volvo's multiple knobs, sliders and buttons for a simple 3-knob arrangement from Classic Auto Air.

[URL=http://s937.photobucket.com/user/MichaelYount/media/LS3%20Engine%20swap/switches_zpsobivwfsy.jpg.html][/URL]

I think I will spin the wheel with what I have, and if it does not work, then I can put it under the heading of "development".

I am not delusional enough to think that this thing wont need at least one driving season and a final bucket of $$$$ to sort out the details.

Well, as we've been saying for years - the devil will be in the details for a build like this.

IMHO, keep as much of the Miata HVAC system intact as possible. The components were engineered to work together. Being up in Canadia, how much do you think you'll use the A/C anyway? It'll probably be used more for defrosting the windshield - which is another reason to keep the Miata dash bits together.

My point was, pick an evaporator that can handle the the size of the cabin and work from there not vice versa.

Ian said: Being up in Canadia, how much do you think you'll use the A/C anyway?

How much will it be needed? Having logged hours in one of these, you probably have a better idea than me. If the P1800 is anything like the MGB GT, then pretty much all the time. It is one of the main reasons I don't drive the car; driving long distances in the GT is like putting on a plastic bag and going for a run in the summer. Wife is a Redhead, and much like a rotary engine, not to be overheated.

Going to the Vintage air system would trigger a huge cascade of events. The system would no longer mount where the Miata one does and would require additional fabrication to locate in the cabin. The console ("waterfall" area) would no longer be located and populated as it came in the Miata. The wiring would have to change to accommodate the new HVAC and the Miata technical manual would no longer be applicable in case of future troubleshooting.

Then again...if I DID scrap the entire Miata HVAC and mount the new stuff wherever, I might have room to put the stock Volvo wipers back where they came from. Cause I still don't have wipers worked out. You see how this game can keep you up at night?

NOHOME wrote: You see how this game can keep you up at night?

Yup. That's why after watching what you're going through, sticking with the original floor pan is my plan. Getting all of those functions to work together in a tight space is bad enough. I think it'll be easier to carve out room in the 1800 firewall to fit a larger vintage air unit (and insulate the damn thing for noise) while keeping the OE wipers. If things really go well, I hope to even put a charcoal filter on the HVAC intake and have a switchable fresh or recirc air option, using one of the OE Volvo fresh air cabin intakes. I have a rough plan in my head, I just won't know if it'll work until I actually get to fitting the HVAC components. Unfortunately, none of that will help you since it involves the original firewall.

As far as the need for A/C? Yes - we would have liked to have it a number of times. Usually when in situations where air flow into the cabin is minimal - like driving down the hwy in the rain and the windows have to be up and the window vents closed. And of course when sitting in traffic in the middle of July. If moving, the window vents do a fairly decent job of keeping the cabin tolerable. Make sure you keep those rear side vents functional. Otherwise the buffeting at speed can be brutal with the windows open. Apparently, early prototypes of the ES had pop-out side windows like the BGT has, but they didn't make it into the production version for some reason.

Honestly, the dash and interior is what I've spent the majority of my day-dreaming on. Everything else is basic, straight-forward restoration work. A crap-ton of work, no doubt, but it's otherwise a well traveled road many have taken before. I know from experience that mechanically, a bone stock 1800ES is a pretty good "GT" car that with minor upgrades won't have any trouble keeping up with modern traffic. It's the interior where I would like things to be a tad more modernized from a functional POV.

Having dealt with both the OEM and aftermarket systems -- I can tell you, the aftermarket system is MUCH, MUCH easier to deal with - from a trouble shooting and repair perspective. And because I installed the new system, I'm intimately familiar with wiring, routing, how things go together/come apart, etc. Additionally -- it's a system that's DESIGNED to have the components work together, as opposed to marrying different components from different systems. I don't know why I didn't do it long ago. FWIW.