Volvo P1800ES...kinda

Yes, there was a Corolla at the Challenge that used a bump stop and a stack of hardware store washers for suspension. His shocks were not keeping up to the very high spring rate of the bump stops. Interesting idea though.

In reply to DeadSkunk :

Kind of short on details like what the spring rates are and stuff like that.

I feel like this is more of a spring lenght issue, regardless of what the spring rate is, with the car at a reasonable drive height,  the springs are hardly in play with before the perches are adjusted off the end of the threads.

I have a query off to FM tech Support to see if this all makes sense to them.

Funny story. Reg just now sent me an e-mail asking about the coil overs as he seems to want a set for his Miata. I would have to sort this out before I sold them to him.

Interesting that on-line images put the helper at the top. Instructions say :

"The helper spring should go on the bottom, and the main spring on top. This is so that the plastic piece that goes between the two won’t catch on the top of the shock."

Reg is still autocrossing a Miata , so that makes sense..

I'll be curious to see what FM recommends. I believe the shock body is too short to run at a height you'll like. Reg may be the way you bail out and get longer stuff. I says get the Bilstein Sports and add the coilover sleeves with spring rates of your choice. That way you'll have about 4" of total stroke to utilize.

In reply to DeadSkunk :

You mean like the guy on the right?

Reg is like all over this, thing is I still need to know why these things squat like a bitch taking a piss. Cant sell them to reg if they are gonna lay his sills on the ground. Maybe toss them on his car and see what they do on a stock car?

Is it just me, or do the helper springs on the one image look more robust than on the other?

The unit on the right is an inch or more longer. The fronts would be at least that much longer. That would jack the ride height a bunch. That's a stock unit and the aluminum lower perch is pressed on and sitting on a C-clip. In my picture the C-clip is about a quarter of an inch up inside the threaded collar. We won't know what height the stock units ride at until you swap them in with the Monster Miata springs , or stock front springs if you have them. I'm not concerned that your car is too heavy for a trial fit with stock springs. If it still sits too low  (with stock stuff) then there's a geometry issue with the subframe, or something.

I understand your concern with selling them to Reg, too. This looks too low, yet there's no reason to believe you got the wrong shocks somehow. We need FM to weigh in on this.

In 2nd pic the helper springs look a little different ,but that's probably just the camera angle. All the FM V-Maxx kits list 112 lb helper springs.

FM site also give representative heights for each version of the kit. Those heights are the distance between the center of the wheel and the fender lip, so must measured with the car sitting on the ground. I have no idea where the Volvo fender lips ended up in relation to the Miata chassis, that's why I gave you the 5.25" sill/pinch seam measure. I THINK your pinch seam is still the Miata one. With threaded collars on the Bilstein Sports I could lower my race car below that point, or raise it almost back to stock. That's a range you don't have. To compare the Molvo to stock Miata might be of help. Measuring from a straight edge laid along the bottom of the pinch seam up to the highest point of the fender lip. At least you would be able to "translate" the FM recommended ride heights to your car. 

None of it really matters until you get the chassis sitting at a height where it looks good and the A-arm is parallel , I think. The parallel thing may matter more with strut cars because you lose camber in roll, but the Miata may not because the upper arm will be going up, too. I'm getting confused.

So with the spring perch screwed all the way to the top of the threaded collar are you topping out the shock travel?

Are you compressing the helper spring significantly with the perch all the way up?

You are right that the pinch welds will be the same as a stock Miata.

Here is a side-view of the car with the a-arm set to where I think it should be. ( pretty much what I show in the picture of the jack-supported ride height)  At this point it is held there by threaded rods. The idea was that with a slight downward slope from inner pivot to the hub, I would still have room to lower another inch or so until it reached perpendicular to the ground. Sills are 7" to the ground from the bottom of the pinch-weld.

Was thinking at this stage: Maybe go up half an inch in tire diameter and lower a half an inch as we should be good.

I believe the V-max shock body can do what I want but not with the spring components I have at hand and I don't even know where to start asking for solutions if I call FM...Hello there Mr Tech support... I got this Miata station wagon Volvo thing that I am trying to suspend on your V-Max Extreme Track Pack coil-over kit and I have a problem..  "Click"...Hello? Hello?...."

Cheaper than springs?

You could PM Keith a link to page 72 of this thread. I'm sure he'll chime in.

I think you're going to need a much longer free spring length/shock package and more than 3" of travel.

In reply to MrJoshua :

The spring perch is screwed all the way to the top of the threads as shown in this picture. Raising the perch has very little effect on the main spring mostly just the helper collapses. 

In the picture, the car is being supported at a proper ride-height and hence not fully collapsed. In this case, I have 2" of bump available and 1" of droop. If I were to lower the jack, I have less than 1" of bump before I hit the bumpstop. I don't think that is correct.

I will try and take some pictures  tonight with the full weight of the car on the suspension.

NOHOME said:

In reply to DeadSkunk :

 

You mean like the guy on the right?

Reg is like all over this, thing is I still need to know why these things squat like a bitch taking a piss. Cant sell them to reg if they are gonna lay his sills on the ground. Maybe toss them on his car and see what they do on a stock car?

 

 

Based on this picture it looks like you have the springs the wrong way around. 

From what I can tell on the flyin' miata site, the springs marked 170/60 go on the longer front shocks, and the ones marked 140/90 go on the shorter rear shocks. 

In reply to simon_C :

The front (longer) shocks
should have the “140-70” (sport) / “140-90” (track) springs,

You could be on to something.

Pete

In reply to NOHOME :

Maybe it's the difference between a helper spring and a tender spring (see loose Canon's MGB thread)?Or the rate of the helper spring you've used? And used at which end (car or damper)?  Call fm about there product. I am sure you'll get a response.

Even if the springs happen to be on the wrong end of the car, the rear springs in the kit are over 20% stiffer than stock front springs and in most spring sets the rears are longer than the fronts. Nothing that explains the excessive drop, at least in my mind.

In reply to simon_C :

Not sure where you got your info from on the FM site, but the manual in the shop clearly states that the 140-90 goes on the front of the car. That said, it also states and makes sense, that the longer spring goes on the front. Especially since what seems to be required to solve this is a longer spring.

What I have not checked is is the instructions are correct; is the 140-90 actually the long spring? Can't say as I compared the two to know for certain. I will go pull a rear coil-over and compare. The picture I posted does make it look like the spring on the rear shock is longer, but not by much and not for sure. Be very nice if that were the issue.

Pete

The pictures on the site show the 170-60 springs on the front shocks. If you have them apart you can check stroke lengths. From memory the rears have a longer stroke. Counter intuitive when you look at the lengths of the shocks.

This is just a guess.......140-90 suggests that the spring is 5.5 inches long and 504 lb/in. if the first number is length in mm and second is rate in Kg/cm. 170-60 is 6.7 inches and 336 lb/in.  The helper springs should have 20 for the rate and approximately 95-100 on length.

With my spec Miata kit there were Eibach springs and the rears were softer, but longer than the fronts. I wonder if these might be the same.

In reply to DeadSkunk :

embarrassed that i did not decode the numbers cause metric.  

In reply to DeadSkunk :

yeah thats where i got my info. Their pic shows 170s on the front

Cleaned the shop and put these together last night

Black springs are sourced from Monster Miata and the former Miata front springs now reside on the rear shock bodies.

Just noticed one spring needs to be rotated!

Now I'm curious to see how low/high the car sits on this setup. Those are the stock shocks for a Mazdaspeed Miata so should have stiffer springs and damping, I think. 

Problem solved for now. Tossed the towel in on the V-Max shocks; I made a bad  purchase  decision based on lack of experience  and learned an expensive lesson.  Time to move on.

The good news is that I had a solution on the shelf and did not have to stew for a month while parts arrived. Monster Miata sourced front springs go on the front Bilsteins and the stock front springs go on the rear Bilsteins.

And using up less than an hour this morning, I had all four corners re-sprung.

Lots of clearance. 6.5" to the bottom of the pinchweld and bump/droop travel that is better suited for a car that will be driven on the street.

Lots of room to play with springs and go a bit lower once I get it on the road. I am sure that suspension will be revisited as I out some miles on the car. Some adjustability for ride height would be a good thing.

Thanks to all who offered help on this.

Pete