I wanted to throw out an idea. You guys should do a roundup of different penetrating oils and their effectiveness. The old PB blaster isn't really king from what I read but there are so many out there and so many people who swear by different ones.
I have started compiling lists and data myself on a local forum http://forums.240sxone.com/showthread.php?p=55377
But grassroots subscribers just LOVE rusty cars (but not bloody knuckles)
Sound like a good idea?
How would you suggest they test this scientifically?
If I were doing it, I'd put identical bolts into some bar stock, torquing them all to the same spec. Then I'd soak that in salt water for awhile to get the whole mess good and corroded.
Once I had that done, and had a bar full of pretty much identically rusted and torqued bolts, testing one oil per bolt would be pretty straightforward. I'd use a torque wrench again to remove them, and record max torque.
I don't know. I heard a lot about the new freezoff E36 M3 and I tried and it didn't work at all. PB sprayed on the same bolt had it right off.
I like Baxter's suggestion, although I'd do several bolts per oil so that my n was larger than 1 for each variable.
Per
Per's right. That's why he's the Tech Editor and I push bytes around.
I like these sort of articles, too.
My newest preferred penetrating oil is Royal Purple Max Film, but I'm never without PB Blaster.
I dunno though, it seems like there can be more to stuck bolts than just rust.
Generally the stuck bolts a penetrating oil would really be most needed and helpful with would be rusted /seized bolts. Crossthreads are just too easy for any penetrating oil.
The biggest problem like people said really would be scientifically making sure all bolts are the same. I would establish a test lot of larger than 2 bolts for each oil just because of variables. Maybe drill and tap several steel barstocks and do 5 bolts each? Maybe using iron would be better to get more rust?
Could use salt spray. Would electrolysis work in reverse? Maybe a junk parts washer with saltwater?
Electrolysis deposition of oxide?
I found these quotes online as well:
"Applying a solution of half hydrogen peroxide half vinegar and a pinch of salt you should get a uniform thick layer of rust in about 5 min"
Wet down entire piece with chlorine bleach, sprinkle lightly with salt, and allow to sit until it dries. Spray the piece with water, but lightly so the dried salt/bleach mixture doesn't rinse off. Just wet the surface down. Let sit overnight.The next morning, mix up a pint of FRESH hydrogen peroxide (standard 3% stuff found at drug stores) with a tablespoon of muriatic acid. Spray this mixture onto the piece. Allow to dry. Once dry, spray once more with this mixture. Let sit overnight.
Next morning, rinse completely with clean water, and you should have a decent rust by now. If there are areas that need more rusting, go back to step 5. Once you are happy with this rust, let it sit for a few days, lightly wetting the surface with water whenever it completely dries out. This will help the rust to really "set in" so it's not just a light surface rust that will brush off.
Looks like there are many ways out there, question is what the best one for penetrating bolt sticking rust would be. Experimentation I suppose
Didnt popular mechanics do something like this? A link was posted recently that showed acetone & atf was the best....
Kendall (Kroil abuser)
If you want something to rust quickly just place it next to an old Fiat.
if you need repeatability for scientific correctness, go find any early 90s honda kept outdoors in Ohio...trust me, all the body bolts will be rusted and at the same rate
There was an old article in a machinist mag that covered pb/kroil/liquid wrench/wd40/ and atf/acetone mix... But That didn't cover stuff like freeze off, ultra screw loose, etc.
Here is a list I found on a wiki of many different penetrants around:
Obviously way more than you would see in a single test, but there are certainly more than just a few solutions out there. A fresh, bigger roundup might be in order for the car guys, I'm sure it would be appreciated. There are no known tests or publications I can find who did a true real ultimate comparison of many, might be good press for grm.
I think this list would be doable:
CRC Industries: Freeze-Off
CRC Industries: Ultra Screwloose
Kroil/Aerokroil
Liquid Wrench
PB Blaster
WD-40
plus maybe 2 more. suggestions for those last two?
Thinking out loud: That would be a total of eight products. We'd need to drill 40 holes and get 40 non-zinc-plated bolts.
Homebrew - 50-50 mix of acetone and ATF.
Another one not in the list: free-all - They use an acidic ph when the rest go alkalai so depending on the reason its frozen it might work when most other ones wouldn't. And bg in force is foaming, something different that seems intriguing.
I think wd-40 might be worth a slight mention, but that's more of a "in a pinch" product since its just an oil and not a penetrant. I would rather see atf + acetone replace wd-4 imho personally.
Mouse milk is Toluene 108-88-3 <60% Hydro treated petroleum distillate <30% with some rubbing alcohol, msds makes it look easy to make at home and similar to the atf blend, might not need to bother testing.
Interesting what you learn about products when you get their msds sheets
Keep WD-40. I think it gets a bad rap. I like it.
I wouldn't bother with the Whiskey Dick. Tis no match for the mighty PB, even if allowed to sit overnight.
tastyratz wrote:Interesting what you learn about products when you get their msds sheets
You're right! When we did the hand cleaner test a while back, all of the marketing verbage was the same, but the MSDSs often told the real stories.
They also provide a point of contact to the manufacturer, which was surprisingly tricky to find for one of the products.
If you guys DO decide to round up too feel free to use my link for reference from the top post. I started compiling everything I could for my forum and got halfway before I thought "Gee GRM would probably be a great place for this" There are a ton of MSDS sheets linked, etc.
Definitely include WD-40. Even if it just proves that the stuff isn't a match to a real penetrating oil.
One of the guys at FM swears by the BG stuff. Seems to work pretty well, and it's definitely not PB Blaster.
You should also test how long they all take to melt a styrofoam cup. I don't think it matters at all, but PB Blaster seems to find this very important.
