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NOHOME
NOHOME UltimaDork
12/6/17 3:42 p.m.

Do your fabrication limits preclude any  and all welding?

Furious_E
Furious_E SuperDork
12/6/17 3:44 p.m.

In reply to alleykat :

Probably about 4 hours, I'm in south central PA. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/6/17 5:19 p.m.
AwesomeAuto said:
Keith Tanner said:

AwesomeAuto, you're doing swaps on big cars that often came with a SBC. It's a different matter when you're dealing with small cars. Truck accessories and intakes  are not an option. Using stock trans and rear ends are not an option. The difference between an iron and aluminum block is significant when the car weighs 2300 lbs to start with. So you have to replace more things, the SBC commonality doesn't help at all and you have to use the more expensive parts.  

You mean like this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOKWxXv01yk

Well, there's an aluminum block there with a car intake on it according to the video :) Can't tell about the accessories, and I guess I didn't say anything about things like an interior or an LSD to put the power down. If you can really do that four times for $10k, I salute you.

goingnowherefast
goingnowherefast New Reader
12/6/17 6:38 p.m.

In reply to alleykat :

Supermiata S2 rules have a power cap. The engines can make more than that with E85 and a few other bits. I've done it, other people have done it. Nothing new. 

-VVT Recipe: 

1. Custom Intake - $85 

2. Flat-top or Skunk 2 Manifold - $300

3. Racing Beat Header - $400

4. Exhaust - $250

5. Standalone ECU - $600-1000

6. E85 - Same cost as gas. 

 

Consider it. That combo will last forever. Add a short ratio 6-spd and I promise you it'll feel quick. The 6-spd with 4.3 gears is pretty awesome. 

 

 

alleykat
alleykat Reader
12/7/17 1:54 a.m.
NOHOME said:

Do your fabrication limits preclude any  and all welding?

Yes. But i have a guy locally who is reasonable and good.

alleykat
alleykat Reader
12/7/17 1:55 a.m.
Furious_E said:

In reply to alleykat :

Probably about 4 hours, I'm in south central PA. 

That's not bad. Sounds like a good excuse for a road trip. 

alleykat
alleykat Reader
12/7/17 1:57 a.m.
goingnowherefast said:

In reply to alleykat :

Supermiata S2 rules have a power cap. The engines can make more than that with E85 and a few other bits. I've done it, other people have done it. Nothing new. 

-VVT Recipe: 

1. Custom Intake - $85 

2. Flat-top or Skunk 2 Manifold - $300

3. Racing Beat Header - $400

4. Exhaust - $250

5. Standalone ECU - $600-1000

6. E85 - Same cost as gas. 

 

Consider it. That combo will last forever. Add a short ratio 6-spd and I promise you it'll feel quick. The 6-spd with 4.3 gears is pretty awesome. 

 

 

That is more appealing than the ecotec and well within my skill set.

alleykat
alleykat Reader
12/7/17 8:24 a.m.

In reply to goingnowherefast :

What ECU options are there for the VVT engine?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/7/17 9:22 a.m.

MS3, FM221, Hydra to name three common options. The last will give the best street driveability if that's a factor.

JBasham
JBasham Reader
12/7/17 2:50 p.m.
alleykat said:

In reply to JBasham :

I would probably go for a set of TC Kline single adjustable if I keep the car. 

That's where I went with my upgrades, and they seem fine as long as I can live within the limits of the spring rates they will damp (around 600#, maybe a bit more).

edizzle89
edizzle89 Dork
12/7/17 3:46 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

AwesomeAuto, you're doing swaps on big cars that often came with a SBC. It's a different matter when you're dealing with small cars. Truck accessories and intakes  are not an option. Using stock trans and rear ends are not an option. The difference between an iron and aluminum block is significant when the car weighs 2300 lbs to start with. So you have to replace more things, the SBC commonality doesn't help at all and you have to use the more expensive parts.  

A lot depends on the chassis you start with. Im swapping a 4.8 into my z31. They make an adapter plate to use the stock 5 speed (although had to change to a z32 bellhousing). I am also using truck accessories, just had to move the alternator over which i did with some custom spacers/bracket that i made for basically free. You are right that most the time you have to use a car intake though. Before the swap the car was around 2800 lbs so should still be sub-3k even with the iron block. I have about $2500 into the swap including the price of the engine.

 

thats the thing about LS swaps, then can be done for as cheap or as expensive as you are willing to go.

goingnowherefast
goingnowherefast New Reader
12/7/17 3:51 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

MS3, FM221, Hydra to name three common options. The last will give the best street driveability if that's a factor.

Wonder why you say that? wink 

alleykat said:

In reply to goingnowherefast :

What ECU options are there for the VVT engine?

From a technical standpoint, Keith is 100% right. The Hydra is a technologically superior ECU. However, you may want to consider MS3 Basic from Trackspeedengineering.com also. The reason for this is because the main Miata forums (Miataturbo.net) have an insane amount of extremely knowledgable people with Megasquirt and the ease of use for Megasquirt is a huge plus. Megasquirt or Hydra, either way you can't go wrong. 

If you can find someone local with the VVT + 4.3 + 6spd combo, try to take a ride with them. I promise you'll be impressed. 

The swap itself isn't too bad. Here's a thread outlining the swap: https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-performance-56/definitive-vvt-swap-into-90-97-chassis-megathread-80469/

If after you're done, you still want more power than call up Keith or Andrew Kidd @ TSE and they'll hook you up. 

 

 

 

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/7/17 4:01 p.m.

I say that because I've actually driven all of them!

The big difference is that nobody's ever spent the (significant) amount of time required to really nail down the driveability aspects on the MS platform. Even the guys at DIY will acknowledge that. There are a bunch of smart guys on Miataturbo for sure, but they're generally more concerned with power than the awkward and difficult parts of the map such as cold start, AC idle compensation, etc. That's the last 10% that takes 90% of the time, so most tuners don't bother. Any time you ride in a car with an owner-tuned aftermarket ECU, you always get a disclaimer about the tune not quite being finished wink

The Hydra also has all the tunes funneling through one point, so there's a massive central knowledge base that you don't get with a more distributed platform. The result is better base maps and a tuner that actually has a reason to work on all the edge cases.

Thus the reason for the statement. The Hydra has hundreds and hundreds of hours of time and direct feedback from hundreds of owners devoted to fine-tuning the street manners. The FM221 isn't there yet because it's newer. The MS variants haven't really seen this dedicated focus. There might be some MS installs out there that have OE-levels of street behavior but they're the rare exception rather than the rule.

Doing the Supermiata recipe is going to take the Miata character and exaggerate it. It will also get you the approval of Miataturbo.net laugh If you like that, it's a great option. But if you started off wanting to build a swap, something that didn't come out of a factory, it may not scratch the itch. Just food for thought.

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