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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/28/18 6:02 p.m.
aircooled said:
irish44j said:

I looooove old Z cars, but I'd have to argue the "cutting edge style" of the 240Z. It is a beautiful car, but most of the style features were essentially derivative of the (greatly inferior overall) Triumph GT6, which had existed for several years already....raised fenders and inset headlights, hood bulge, hump over the rear fender, and the general proportions. Granted the Z substantially modernized the overall look, but the design was more evolutionary than cutting edge, I'd say. YMMV.

Sadly, the GT6 was such a mediocre car in every category other than looks, most people pretty much just forgot about it lol...

Image result for 1970 triumph gt6

You mean the car that was clearly derivative of the Ferrari 250 GTO?  cheeky

 

If you're going to be derivative, that's a pretty good choice.

irish44j
irish44j UltimaDork
6/28/18 6:28 p.m.
aircooled said:
irish44j said:

I looooove old Z cars, but I'd have to argue the "cutting edge style" of the 240Z. It is a beautiful car, but most of the style features were essentially derivative of the (greatly inferior overall) Triumph GT6, which had existed for several years already....raised fenders and inset headlights, hood bulge, hump over the rear fender, and the general proportions. Granted the Z substantially modernized the overall look, but the design was more evolutionary than cutting edge, I'd say. YMMV.

Sadly, the GT6 was such a mediocre car in every category other than looks, most people pretty much just forgot about it lol...

Image result for 1970 triumph gt6

You mean the car that was clearly derivative of the Ferrari 250 GTO?  cheeky

 

Edit: I see you meant the Z was derivative of the 250 GTO, which makes sense. 

Ironically, the GT6 was likely modeled off of the original 250GT/Berlinetta, as both of them were designed by Michelotti). So the Z could have been an amalgamation, really. The main point I was making was that the Z wasn't a "cutting edge" style but really Mr. K just designed his own version of many European fastbacks and GT cars that already had that general look in the 60s/70s, whether that be the GT6/MGB GT or the Ferraris, or several others.

Ferrari 250-GT Berlinetta Lusso cars 1962 wallpaper

 

G_Body_Man
G_Body_Man UltraDork
6/28/18 6:49 p.m.

Small bit of pedantry here, didn't the 2005 Mustang GT have 300 horsepower from a 3v 4.6 V8?

te72
te72 Reader
6/28/18 9:07 p.m.

In reply to G_Body_Man :

This sounds right to my memory as well. Couple numerical issues I noticed. The Supra was quoted as having 300hp from 3.0 liters, when in US spec, it had 320hp, and I suspect that might have been a bit underrated myself.

 

Another numerical error was in the same comparison, the STI was quoted as being a 2.0 liter. In Japan and other markets, this might have been true, but here in the US, we got a 2.5L, which, while it did deliver decent power, it has a fun habit of puking rod bearings and head gaskets from everything I've seen. It's almost like the good old days of "if your DSM isn't broke, you are" haha.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
6/29/18 7:10 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:
aircooled said:
irish44j said:

I looooove old Z cars, but I'd have to argue the "cutting edge style" of the 240Z. It is a beautiful car, but most of the style features were essentially derivative of the (greatly inferior overall) Triumph GT6, which had existed for several years already....raised fenders and inset headlights, hood bulge, hump over the rear fender, and the general proportions. Granted the Z substantially modernized the overall look, but the design was more evolutionary than cutting edge, I'd say. YMMV.

Sadly, the GT6 was such a mediocre car in every category other than looks, most people pretty much just forgot about it lol...

Image result for 1970 triumph gt6

You mean the car that was clearly derivative of the Ferrari 250 GTO?  cheeky

 

If you're going to be derivative, that's a pretty good choice.

Clearly a Shelby Daytona derivative.

 

 

Kreb
Kreb UberDork
6/29/18 9:06 a.m.

About the "derivative" theme, car design doesn't follow an orderly path where Ferrari makes a car, then Ford says "Hmm now how am I going to react to that". Projects are done in parallel, designers quit, projects get shelved, et cetera. If you didn't have an eye for detail, you could say that all mid-engined supercars look the same, or hot-hatches, or muscle-cars.... 

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 UltimaDork
6/29/18 9:53 a.m.
Joe Gearin said:

In reply to irish44j :

This was an older article.   We've been posting past editorial up on the website.  We have over 30 years of material to choose from, so you'll be getting deja-vu occasionally.  

So basically, we're getting summer re-runs?

 

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
6/29/18 11:15 a.m.
Kreb said:

About the "derivative" theme, car design doesn't follow an orderly path where Ferrari makes a car, then Ford says "Hmm now how am I going to react to that". Projects are done in parallel, designers quit, projects get shelved, et cetera. If you didn't have an eye for detail, you could say that all mid-engined supercars look the same, or hot-hatches, or muscle-cars.... 

Iirc, the roofline on the Z is aaaaawfully close to that of the 250 GTO. It's possible that it's a little more than convergent evolution in this particular case. 

The Daytona Coupe, not so much. There are some styling elements and a rough silhouette in common but that's about it. 

racerdave600
racerdave600 UltraDork
6/29/18 11:28 a.m.
parker said:
racerdave600 said:
jj said:
mikell17 said:

Too bad the BRZ and FR-S are selling horribly.  I thought more people would've jumped on these.  I bet they would if they had a decent amount of horsepower.  They're great taking turns but not so much light to light. 

I agree with you.  I test drove them twice when I was in the market.  The midrange was absolutely dead, and I couldn't live with it day to day.  

I bought one new, this was exactly my issue, along with a few others.  Every mom in her minivan could leave you dead at a light.  I'm sure on track or at an autocross it was a joy, but day to day living I really didn't enjoy it.  If I were back in my 20's again, I'm sure I would have had a different opinion however.

You do know they rev to over 7k RPM right?  I have never had a mom in a minivan leave me at a light.  The twins are as fast as an MR2 turbo or an old school musclecar.  You just have wind them out.  

 

Well aware, and used to own a MR2 Turbo.  There is no comparison, the MR2 would walk away from the BRZ on torque alone.  By comparison:

Honda Odyssey

0-30 2.6 sec

0-30  6.6

BRZ

0-30  3.3 sec

0-30 6.5 sec

It's going to take you a while to catch and pass it after being almost a second behind at 30.  

FSP_ZX2
FSP_ZX2 Dork
6/29/18 1:58 p.m.

 The '78 RX-7 and the '83 944 are the two obvious omissions in my mind.

 

 

Team_Blitz
Team_Blitz New Reader
6/30/18 12:24 p.m.

A monumentally influential car, the Ford Capri mk1 (1969-74), should be on this list. It was a massive and reasonably-priced seller (the #2 top selling BRAND! of foreign car in 1973, only VW sold more imports than L-M selling the Ford Capri in North America that model year). It was a dominant racing car - even if Ford didn't push that in the USA/Canada after ending the Total Performance program - winning class at LeMans and 10th overall in 1972, the ETCC in 1971 and 1972, and the Tour de France in class 1972 and 3rd overall (just a handful of examples). It had hearty engine choices like the I-4 OHC 2.0L Pinto motor and V6 Colognes. MacStrut front, Rack & Pinion, power front DB, Radial tires standard, full instrumentation, 4-speed, bucket seats standard - these were bleeding edge equipment in its price niche. Light, tossable, highly favorable contemporary reviews.

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
6/30/18 12:38 p.m.

Guys this isn’t intended to be an exhaustive list. It doesn’t say “the only 12 cars that..” it says “12 cars that..”

PT_SHO
PT_SHO New Reader
6/30/18 1:08 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I haven't looked up sales figures, but there are 4 autocross classes (SCCA) that the twins either dominate or are competitive in, this is within sight of what the Miata/MX-5 has done and in a lot shorter period.  I'm not sure what GRM/CM used as criteria for influential.  I'd guess it involves journalistic consensus and awards, sales, aftermarket, and staying power.  The twins are pretty solid there.  It remains to be seen if they will really last - first sales here were 2013 but the real update isn't coming until maybe 2021.

Oh, and a comment to GRM - your reprint/retread articles have until now stated their initial publication date in the header.  Can you go back to including that please?

wspohn
wspohn Dork
6/30/18 1:41 p.m.

I count at most 4 sports cars in your article.

You have a very liberal definition fo the term 'sports car' if you think that a bunch of sedans merit inclusion.

ROARRR
ROARRR New Reader
7/11/18 11:42 a.m.

The SCCA has been the standard of motorsport for several decades, they have had classes for sedans separate from sports and GT's pretty much forever, Jaguar raced the 120's AND the MK-VII saloons -which weren't considered sports cars but saloons/sedans! YES, modern technology has enabled almost anything to accelerate and pull big G's but a family sedan is still that!

 

mad_machine
mad_machine MegaDork
7/11/18 1:52 p.m.

I am surprised the X 1/9 did not make the cut. This was the cheap mid-engined sports car that was the template for the MR2, Scorpion, Fiero, and Elise to follow

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