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June 27, 2010 8:44 a.m. Schmidlap Reader

AutoXR wrote:

splitime wrote:

Clay wrote:

I've been reading the build thread for the Vorshlag $2010 Challenge entry: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1343977 and I had a few questions. From my reading of the rules it reads that work done in a for-profit shop should charge FMW, not just material. Now I don't know how Vorshlag is doing their pricing, but it seems that they are producing a high level shop build in their shop, but pricing it like they are just a hobbyiest that happens to have all this equipment. My example would be cutting new nylon bushings from nylon stock on their lathe to save the cost of buying new bushings. I certainly don't mean to cause them any trouble, I'm just curious how this "shop" build will compare to the home garage guys in their pricing. I have no idea if they have used other shop equipment for the mounts, etc. Just curious.

That is only fair honestly. If its in a real shop... it needs to be tallied in.

I just read it as well ,

$2010?? LOL

corner weighting alone runs around the $600 mark in these parts.

It's not being done at the Vorshlag shop.

Terry said: "Exactly - if you saw this shop at my house most of you would be sorely disappointed... the $1400 lift is the most expensive tool we have to use. Yes, I have a couple of welders (one of which I bought 11 years ago) and a (cheap Harbor Freight) plasma cutter. I've seen CMC racers with better fab equipment than I have here. This is hardly some Gran Am team's pet project built in some 100,000 sq foot shop by their race team."

From here:

Build thread at c-c.com

As I understand it, most people working on the car are not Vorshlag employees, just volunteers who wanted to be part of the team. They are very aware that they will be more heavily scrutinized (by other competitors, spectators, etc) than most other teams because they are a business, and they are promising to have extremely thorough documentation. They want this to be a positive marketing exercise for Vorshlag, not something that will create bitterness among a large number of enthusiasts.

Bob
June 27, 2010 8:44 a.m. unevolved HalfDork

I think he's referring to what Vorshlag would usually charge for cornerweighting.
June 27, 2010 12:20 p.m. 93celicaGT2 UberDork

Maybe i'm too lenient, but i just read through that whole build, and i don't see anything wrong with it...

Nylon bushings? So? There's two KIDS on the MX6 forums that make them to replace shifter bushings to take out slop, and i've already talked to one of them about making front end bushings for me. I don't really consider that to be that crazy.

They're doing an asston of work, and a lot of it is stuff that i wouldn't, and still don't have any clue about, but none of it smacks of "cheating."
June 27, 2010 2:20 p.m. unevolved HalfDork

It's definite grey area. Do they have access to tools that John Q. Homemechanic doesn't? Yeah. Do a lot of members on this site have access to odd or above-average tools? Yep.
June 28, 2010 6:34 a.m. 93celicaGT2 UberDork

unevolved wrote:

It's definite grey area. Do they have access to tools that John Q. Homemechanic doesn't? Yeah. Do a lot of members on this site have access to odd or above-average tools? Yep.

That's it right there. If i had garage space, you bet i'd have every strange or cool tool i could fit in there, in there, and i'd be learning how to use it all so i could do something like this.

I mean, it's not like they're trying to slip the car into Caveman Class or anything, and the fact that they're documenting EVERYTHING sure shows that they're being honest about the build.

Looking at some of the past challengers, this doesn't seem wrong at all. Look at Gutty for instance. (And no, i'm not calling them out in any way shape or form) I don't see this build being any more nutso or awesome than Gutty. And that's just one example.
June 28, 2010 7:13 a.m. unevolved HalfDork

I've noticed some people have this idealized model of what the "average" garage has, but no one really knows what that is.
June 28, 2010 7:24 a.m. 93celicaGT2 UberDork

My average garage consists of a parking lot, two jack stands, a jack, and a Craftsman 154-piece "mechanics" tool set.

Oh, and some screwdrivers, and an x-acto knife. (Great for cutting through copper to make gaskets)

I don't really expect everyone else to be held to those standards. (Or lack thereof.)
June 28, 2010 9:51 a.m. Clay Reader

I missed where he said it was his home garage. I saw the lift, lathe, etc and 'assumed'. Oh well. That was my big issue with it. I agree the lathe is something I could see myself having one day as well. I won't have a certified machinist come by and work on it for multiple full days to make my parts, but I guess knowing those kinds of people comes with owning a shop like that. I know who I'm putting my money on for 1st though!
June 28, 2010 10:10 a.m. 93celicaGT2 UberDork

I'm a little miffed that they got rid of the Q45 motor idea.
June 28, 2010 11:01 p.m. redzcstandardhatch Reader

i dont have any money, at all, but i have a crapload of weird tools, and a lift in the garage.

priorities, and smart shopping people. craiglist, estate sales,etc.

i dont pay anything for cars,really....why would we do that for tools?!
June 29, 2010 7:08 a.m. unevolved HalfDork

We don't have any money either, we just are really, really good mooches.
June 29, 2010 7:32 a.m. 93celicaGT2 UberDork

I don't have any money. I also don't have any wrenching skills, so it all works out. I can't afford to buy all those cool tools that i have no idea how to use, so no big loss in this case.
July 6, 2010 12:20 p.m. weconway New Reader

Just want to check...

Brake parts are "safety" items as long as they're stock. However, if you change the uprights (like putting Integra uprights on a Civic) and install stock parts from the donor car, then that is a performance upgrade and the parts count, right?
July 6, 2010 6:56 p.m. unevolved HalfDork

Yes. And stainless steel brake lines aren't included in budget.
July 9, 2010 3:13 p.m. tb New Reader
I could use some clarification this:
1. Windows may be replaced with clear Lexan or polycarbonate that meets all safety requirements
In order to put my saab back on the road, I have currently simply replaced the sheet of glass with lexan and reinstalled factory style. While this seems in keeping with the spirit of the event, I also want to pass safety tech and actually compete... Can anyone educate me on the relevant safety requirements for properly installing lexan windows?
July 9, 2010 9:25 p.m. unevolved HalfDork

I believe, when this was asked before, the answer was something to the effect of, "If it's good enough for NHRA and SCCA, it's good enough for us."

I'd double check that, though.
July 10, 2010 10:29 a.m. SVreX PowerDork

Safety requirements are governed by the NHRA and the SCCA, not GRM.

I believe a center support is required. Thickness would effect this. Not sure about the rubber gasket mount.
July 10, 2010 10:35 a.m. SVreX PowerDork

NHRA says minimum 1/8" thick shatterproof, and that tinting is governed by applicable state requirements. Competition number decals are permitted on rear quarter and rear window only, tape is not permitted. Good condition, free from cracks, OEM windshields may not be cut for a hoop scoop, etc.

Someone else chime in on SCCA.
July 10, 2010 5:31 p.m. tb New Reader

SVreX wrote:

NHRA says minimum 1/8" thick shatterproof, and that tinting is governed by applicable state requirements. Competition number decals are permitted on rear quarter and rear window only, tape is not permitted. Good condition, free from cracks, OEM windshields may not be cut for a hoop scoop, etc.

Someone else chime in on SCCA.

Thank you for the details, I could only find information about windshield glass so this helps a lot. I will continue to look for cheap glass but need to know the options.

fwiw, I have driven over 800 miles in the past few days and the thin 3/32" lexan has held up fine
July 11, 2010 1:50 p.m. triumph5 Reader

Slippery slope thing, this shop question. What if I build a car WITHOUT a shop. Build it outdoors, overing it with a tarp at night, and the tools are in my apartment. No lift, just jackstands, floor jack, and rented cherry picker. Do I then get a CREDIT for not having to support a shop: electricity, property taxes, money not spent on maintaining machinery, etc... Then there's the question of using a relative"s garage to store the car between working on it. There's definite monetary value there.
And computer simulation time--like the sucker 'vette guys did when using extensive computer simulation/projections on all aspects of their car. This built for $2010 is getting a bit out of hand, and laughable.YES some teams can do it; lots haven't. Comments.
July 11, 2010 2:10 p.m. SVreX PowerDork

You guys are really overdoing the shop thing.

Rule #1 (and the only rule that REALLY matters) is that the purpose of the event is to generate editorial content for a magazine. Therefore, cool is allowable.

No one has ever been eliminated because he owned a lot of tools, and no one ever will. The intent is to prevent pro fab shops from taking over, or from contestants simply paying pros to build their cars, and the event accomplishes both admirably.

The one guy I NEVER hear complaining about the shop thing is Andy Nelson. No one has beaten him for 5 years on the dragstrip, wins top honors, everyone loves him, and thoroughly respects him.

Yet he builds in a barn with a dirt floor, and uses no tools more exotic than a hand drill.

Instead of whining about who's not playing fair cause they've got a nicer shop, why don't 'yall just try to build to the same standard that Andy builds? (Since we all know he's legal).

Vorshlag is working hard to keep in the spirit of the event. I don't think they'll mind a bit if they get eliminated, but they'll try anyway. Good for them. I look forward to seeing their effort (although they are certainly not a shoe-in, just because they've got tools). I'd like to see more "pros" try as hard.

...or at least more "non-pros" try as hard as Andy Nelson.
July 11, 2010 2:21 p.m. MrJoshua UltraDork

If you want to even the playing field, you need to rule out all those really frickin talented people. Oh yeah, rule out those disciplined people too. Seriously, I keep buying tools and parts and I never place any higher. It's just not fair.
July 11, 2010 2:23 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

Paul once again 'gets it'.

I've been watching the Vorshlag build and I'm confident that it's not a 'shop' just a bunch of guys/gals building a car on their own time.
July 11, 2010 2:52 p.m. unevolved HalfDork

SVreX wrote: ...or at least more "non-pros" try as hard as Andy Nelson.

We're trying hard, but that doesn't mean anything.
July 11, 2010 3:00 p.m. 4cylndrfury SuperDork

I LOVE THIS THREAD

that is all...

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