2010 Challenge Rules---First Draft-Page 5: Grassroots Motorsports forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

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Oct. 22, 2009 6:23 p.m. SillyImportRacer New Reader

1 more Question about the role cage: Dose a bolt-in cage have to be removable?
Oct. 22, 2009 7:14 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

It needs to be bolted to where it attaches the chassis, but does not need to be removable.
Oct. 23, 2009 2:42 a.m. SillyImportRacer New Reader

Thanks
Oct. 23, 2009 3:17 a.m. VanillaSky Reader

Does dyno time count as "work done in a for profit shop"? Just something I want to know if I end up on the dyno in the challenger.
Oct. 23, 2009 10:35 a.m. AngryCorvair SuperDork

VanillaSky wrote:

Does dyno time count as "work done in a for profit shop"? Just something I want to know if I end up on the dyno in the challenger.

hmmm, that's a grey area even to me. on one hand, yes. on the other hand, no.

i would vote no, and argue that a dyno is just a stationary drag strip, and the cost of dyno time is analogous to the drag strip entry fee on a test and tune night. the data you get from dyno time is no more valuable than the data you'd get from running at the strip. if the dyno guy actually tunes your car, then you make him a team member and now his labor is free.

if he flashes your existing ECU, no parts cost. but if he burns a new chip, then you have to include the cost of the chip.
Oct. 23, 2009 2:24 p.m. SVreX PowerDork

I thought the powers that be had ruled dyno time as billable to the budget.

Per?
Oct. 23, 2009 2:25 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

We had ruled that it wasn't a part of the budget in past years.
Oct. 23, 2009 3:44 p.m. MrJoshua UltraDork

Dyno guy tuning car would be a pro working on your car and would count what you paid him. If he became a "Team Member" and didn't charge you he would count under the "Work performed at a professional shop will be budgeted......" rule. Doesn't that rule still exist?
Oct. 23, 2009 3:46 p.m. MrJoshua UltraDork

BTW-I obviously defer to Per because I am just a forum guy and he actually writes the rules.
Oct. 24, 2009 7:41 a.m. wheels777 HalfDork

Are the rules posted anywhere? The boys have stripped everything down and want to move forward on the component swapping. They are about to cut metal today. Is the roll bar/cage rule finallized? If so, what does it say?
Oct. 25, 2009 5:38 a.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

Yea, the last one that I posted in this thread was pretty close. I'll post the latest iteration on the challenge page this week.
Oct. 26, 2009 1:24 p.m. Fair New Reader

These rules updates look pretty good. I like the addition of the 5-point weld-in or bolt-in cages... allows a GRM Challenge car to be used in track events safely. Hey...

You guys should have a $2009 Challenge class at the next UTCC.
Oct. 26, 2009 1:52 p.m. neon4891 UltraDork

If I buy a part on Ebay, does shipping count in the budget?
Oct. 26, 2009 1:56 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director
Uh. yea.
1. All builders shall spend no more than $2010 on their cars. The purchase price of the car must be equal to or less than $2010. Title fees, registration and insurance are not counted toward the budget. Shipping (or transportation costs) of the car and parts used in the building process must be counted toward the budget.
Oct. 28, 2009 12:48 p.m. Fair New Reader

Check out this Mustang that crashed last week at Hallet - with a bolt in roll cage:

http://jalopnik.com/5390934/mustang-cover-boy-tries-to-corner-flips-over-tire-wall

The top of the car pancaked completely flat because the bolt in cage punched right through the floor (see the pics). Obviously the mounting plates weren't big enough to transfer the loads from the cage uprights to the floorpan. Luckily, nobody was hurt.

This of course shouldn't be a problem for the GRM Challenge events, just keep this in mind whenever you look at a weld-in vs. a bolt-in cage for your GRM Challenge car (or any race car). I've got a scar on the top of my head from getting into a street car with a bolt-in cage w/o a helmet on (it was a friend's FStock prepped autox car that was street driven), where an exposed bolt head dug into my skull. Bleh, I just don't like bolt-in cages...

I'm liking the weld-in 4/5-point cage allowance for this Challenge more and more...

(annoying auctioneer radid voice): We got 4, 4, 4... the man with the 3 letter first name has raised the bidding to 5 point cages. We got 5, 5, 5... cannihear 6?
Oct. 28, 2009 2:26 p.m. Nashco SuperDork

That cage poking through the floor had nothing to do with welded versus bolted; you are acknowledging that, right Fair?

Bryce
Oct. 31, 2009 7:43 a.m. BFH_Garage New Reader

I have a battery relocation question: NHRA requires an approved battery box if the battery is mounted in the cabin and they also require a master cut off switch mounted outside the vehicle. Would this be considered "safety" equipment or would it count towards the budget?

I wish I had paid more attention to what others were doing with battery relocations!
Oct. 31, 2009 9:31 a.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

there's no safety reason that you mounted the battery within the cabin, therefore the box/relocation kit count towards the budget.
Nov. 1, 2009 12:06 a.m. JetMech New Reader

Per Schroeder wrote:

there's no safety reason that you mounted the battery within the cabin.

Yup. Assuming it's not something like a VW Beetle, the only reasons I can see for so doing are A) to improve weight distribution (in which case, you'd probably want it in the trunk) and B) engine swaps that leave you with no room to place the battery in the engine compartment.
Nov. 2, 2009 6:48 a.m. redzcstandardhatch New Reader

look for a used sealed-cell battery. thats what we did with gutty this year. 10 bucks from out rally-racer buddy.

light, mounted anywhere, any angle, etc.

stupid thing kept going dead on us though.. kinda annoying.
Nov. 3, 2009 8:42 a.m. splitime Reader

I could use a small adjustment/clarification of the rollbar rules. Say I purchase a 4pt Hard dog rollbar for the miata. But want to add a 5th point for safety. Can I add that onto the "commercially" available bar and stay within the rules? It would be built as a bolt in 5th point. I just figure if I can be safer.. I'll take the weight penalty of adding the extra bar.
Nov. 3, 2009 9:01 a.m. Fair New Reader

Nashco wrote:

That cage poking through the floor had nothing to do with welded versus bolted; you are acknowledging that, right Fair?

Bryce

Yea, after further investigation that particular Mustang's bolt-in installaiton was problematic, and not indicative of all bolt-in bars/cages. I still don't much like bolt-in cages, but they can be done safely if adequate floor plate reinforcement is used.

We might still do a bolt-in 4-point for our $2010 car initially, don't know yet. One of our team members just bought a 4-point bolt-in bar from Kirk Racing for his own E30, so maybe we'll stick it in the Vorshlag E30 for grins, to see how it fits.
Dec. 2, 2009 12:34 p.m. unevolved New Reader

What are the chances of excluding OEM-replacement wheel studs from the budget? I remember the "Torqueless Rotards" FB RX-7 wreck in a LeMons race when a stud failed, and we all saw the PBR Sentra's accident at the '09 Challenge. I can't see any performance advantage replacing studs would give. Although they're cheap, every little bit helps if we can exclude them from the budget.
Dec. 4, 2009 11:11 p.m. VanillaSky Reader

Here's a budget question. I won an item in a raffle that I'd like to install. It would be worth it to install at the price of the raffle ticket, but not at FMV. The raffle was open to the whole model-specific forum, so I would see this as something that could be counted as price payed, which would be what I payed for the raffle ticket plus shipping.
Dec. 5, 2009 11:52 a.m. SVreX PowerDork

Hmmm... Interesting approach, but I don't think I buy that idea.

The point is that however you build the car could theoretically be repeated by someone else willing to put in the same effort.

I think your raffle is either a gift (which would be FMV), or something you owned and decided to utilize (which would be FMV). I don't think the value is the purchase price of the raffle ticket.