alfadriver said:Dumb question- how did the insight win the concourse...it looks very thrashed together...the appearance execution looks terrible.
You just sound butt-hurt at being beaten by a bunch of highschoolers. After seeing some of the wild builds this year I can't wait to go for my first time in 2018.
In reply to danneskjold :
Nah.... butt hurt is just a natural state. Alfa hasn't been to the Challenge since 2004! 
danneskjold said:alfadriver said:Dumb question- how did the insight win the concourse...it looks very thrashed together...the appearance execution looks terrible.
You just sound butt-hurt at being beaten by a bunch of highschoolers. After seeing some of the wild builds this year I can't wait to go for my first time in 2018.
LOl. ok. At least everyone knows you can do really bad fiberglass work and it will be overlooked.
Go for it, you'll have a good time.
TheV8Kid said:GTXVette said:
I liked Calvin's car. I love Pontiac's the car looked good . what does a Fuel Injector test stand Have to do with the Concours? seems to me that was more a distraction to the Judges. 'but That was Kool ' you say, then go to auto zone or your Fav. auto parts store and be Mesmerized by the Spray Pattern. those tools get passed around from Store to store on a regular basis to sell New Injectors, anyone finding that Interesting doesn't know anything about cars. like 5th graders. Calvin I like your Cars so keep it up and see you next year.
Now the Funny Car, If you all just FMV the basic parts the answer is NO. I hear all the love for Poppa Nelson, He was Rude to me. I can Only assume it's because I DO know what it takes to Run 9's. Once you convince yourself that you are Legal it's easier to Convince others that you are Also. Ask me how I know. a Friend that was there that also Raced Professionally. didn't look at it for more than a minute and walked away shaking his head. Awesome Pass though.
I already got on the boy's from GT, Sadly he Agreed with Me, Lol Lol Lol. Go Jacket's
I normally don't respond to these types of comments, but I think I can answer a few of the questions/comments you have.
I believe you missed the point of the injector test stand. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was a home made injector test stand, because that is only mildly interesting. What was cool about it was I took a set of stock injectors and decapped them, making them flow like $400-$500 injectors. I did not even operate the thing in front of the judges. It was just there to show the difference in flow between stock and decapped injectors.
By "funny car", I assume you are talking about my dad's Datsun. The cylinder heads were cracked when we bought them. Then we fixed them with help from some friends. I don't think it would be fair to have to FMV a part you bought cheap because it was damaged, after you fixed it. The engine was worn out when we got it, but we ran it anyways. I will talk to my dad about posting the pictures of the cylinder walls. I could go on..
Hope that cleared a few things up for you.
Calvin, you have more grace than I. Posts like that make me want to scream.
I will say, as a judge, that your presentation was completely understood by the judges, and absolutely relevant. No question it increased your Concours score.
(Plus, I learned a little 
)
I didn't participate in this challenge, or any other. I just watched the videos, followed along with amazing builds, and checked out the results. I have nothing to gain, or anything to lose. 0 eggs in this basket.
The 9 second car listed a purchase price of 100. Looking at craigslist in every area I can choose in my search, the only sub 1000 shells are rusted up hunks of remains, waiting their fate at the scrap yard.
If the very first item on your purchase list is questionable, it doesn't say much for the trust of the 2000$ goal.
lnlogauge said:I didn't participate in this challenge, or any other. I just watched the videos, followed along with amazing builds, and checked out the results. I have nothing to gain, or anything to lose. 0 eggs in this basket.
The 9 second car listed a purchase price of 100. Looking at craigslist in every area I can choose in my search, the only sub 1000 shells are rusted up hunks of remains, waiting their fate at the scrap yard.
If the very first item on your purchase list is questionable, it doesn't say much for the trust of the 2000$ goal.
The car was purchased over 10 years ago. They were not as valuable back then. It was $100 because some one abandoned it on the side of the road and never reclaimed it.
Edit: I knew I should have kept my mouth shut 
. I did not want to get into this. If you want to get into every line item, you can talk to my dad. I do not know all of the details he will be able to better answer your questions.
I truly feel I am more like you Guy's than My post may seem, I try to Hit all the Local Swap meet's and often spend more than I make. I know a deal when I see It. I do Not Have the tools or Talent to Weld Heads so I know what it's worth. I am a Carb Guy so I thought that Injectors need be Very Precise and don't know how one would regulate a Decapped Injector , I should have come down for a demonstration.
The engine I was planning on using next year I got from a Boat with Minor issues that the owner thought were Major,he had the wrong Pushrods, no you can't have it back. I built a Dominator I got for 35 dollars I thought no one would believe it so was looking for another. If ya'll's is good Mine is too. see you next year.
GTXVette said:I truly feel I am more like you Guy's than My post may seem, I try to Hit all the Local Swap meet's and often spend more than I make. I know a deal when I see It. I do Not Have the tools or Talent to Weld Heads so I know what it's worth. I am a Carb Guy so I thought that Injectors need be Very Precise and don't know how one would regulate a Decapped Injector , I should have come down for a demonstration.
The engine I was planning on using next year I got from a Boat with Minor issues that the owner thought were Major,he had the wrong Pushrods, no you can't have it back. I built a Dominator I got for 35 dollars I thought no one would believe it so was looking for another. If ya'll's is good Mine is too. see you next year.
Glad I could clear a few things up for you. Sorry if we were rude, or came across that way.
Hope to see you next year as well.
Paul, the Scream Machine will Have a seat Just for You. Lol, Ain't Scared to say what I think. I'm too Old to worry about it. I like you anyway, If your Journey's bring you over this way you must stop by. But I feel that way about Les and he won't Talk to me Either. Laffin' again.
1. GTXVette. I sent a PM to you earlier apologizing for any rude or out of line comment. While I don't recall even approaching something rude to anyone, I am not about to say it did not occur. I will say I do not recall. And, have had to apologize for things most of my adult life because my intent and impact don't always align. 6 days ago I was informed that I wrote something offensive and hurtful. I reread it 3 times in the tone in which I meant it and wrote it, and I couldn't see the errors of my statement. I then reread it in a negative tone an could see the offendees point of view. I apologized to that person and I sincerely apologize to you. Please reply to my PM and let me know what I said. The board is not the place for these details.
2. We are building cars with $2017. We are not building $2017 cars.
3. $100 car was not only the price, it was the delivered price. Those cars are available in our area. We walked away from a 72 240Z 2-3 weeks ago for $200 and it was/is in better shape then the one we used in this build. I bought a 75 280Z for $49.95 off eBay. We learned early on that one of the keys to the Challenge is buying a cheap car that can be sold down to zero. If you start high, you may or may not zero the car, and you definitely limit your parts sales. To date, our most expensive car used for a Challenge platform was $300.
4. Use your own on line calculator, I have my own calculations. Our car went 10.4+ at 130 with no nitrous. It weights 2,455# minus a few parts I removed before the event (probably 7#). Basic numbers for HP is 392 to 418, depending on which calculator you use. Are folks not able to build cheap SBCs to make that kind of power? I don't think there is too much heartburn with that. Admittedly, we do have an over abundance of SBC parts available since we are in the middle of dirt track and drag racing tracks. Then add the Power Shot Nitrous that got sprayed gate to gate. NOS claims 150 HP, we consistantly see 160-170 HP. I do tune the system with fuel pressure to better match the cylinder weight and don't rely on the the single setting in the instructions. 150 HP should be a 0.9 second improvement. We saw/see/ran 0.89. Final HP numbers are 526 to 544 on spray. Are there any parts or pieces in question?
5. We tested and tested and tested. We changed parts to match an ET event, not a MPH event. We adjusted launch rpms, shift rpms, gear ratios, timing. Did I mention we tested and tested and tested?
6. One of the single most important items that must be employed when building a Challenge car is this.... $20 is 1% of your budget. Is that part worth 1% of your build? Is that $40 part worth 2%? When you look at the smalls and make/build/account for the small expenses, the bigger parts are more attainable and/or attractive for a budget build.
7. Cars with straight line set-ups don't turn (our car). Cars with turning set-ups don't launch. There are exceptions. Ed's $2014 Mustang and our $2015 Bug. The difference, they were easily convertible from one discipline to the other. I picked my poison and knew it was a one trick pony. That alone was/is/could be 1/2-2 seconds in the drags, but 2-3 seconds in Ax.
lnlogauge said:I didn't participate in this challenge, or any other. I just watched the videos, followed along with amazing builds, and checked out the results. I have nothing to gain, or anything to lose. 0 eggs in this basket.
The 9 second car listed a purchase price of 100. Looking at craigslist in every area I can choose in my search, the only sub 1000 shells are rusted up hunks of remains, waiting their fate at the scrap yard.
If the very first item on your purchase list is questionable, it doesn't say much for the trust of the 2000$ goal.
Dude, that is not how bargain hunting works. They call it "hunting" because you have to do more than just stroll out on any given day and plunk down your cash. You have to look look look and jump in when the deal is right. It's not going to be handed to you. Just because you don't know how to get good deals doesn't mean it's not possible.
GTXVette said:
Paul, the Scream Machine will Have a seat Just for You. Lol, Ain't Scared to say what I think. I'm too Old to worry about it. I like you anyway, If your Journey's bring you over this way you must stop by. But I feel that way about Les and he won't Talk to me Either. Laffin' again.
Nobody is too old to be polite and rational. Your earlier post was - flat out - calling the Nelsons liars. It's rude and uncalled for. If you did that to their face maybe that's why you got a rude reaction. His follow up here shows he's more level headed than I am.
Instead of "ain't scared to say what I think," maybe you should be "ain't scared to be wrong and learn something new." It's sad to me when people use their age as an excuse to be rude and close minded.
Patrick said:someone brought up recognition for Dynamic scores. I'd like to see it as a ribbon under the car in the challenge issue in the standings like 1-3 in autocross and drags do, to help indicate the top all around racecars prior to concours.
Have post-challenge discussions always been this dramatic and I just wasn't paying attention?
Either way, good job to everyone involved. Even after following the challenge for well over a decade I continue to be amazed at the ingenuity, skill, and dedication that the competitors put forth. The GRM staff does ok too I guess. 
I keep telling myself I'll make it down there one day...
In reply to Matt B :
Yeah, in fact there were some that were much, much worse. This is pretty tame and fairly constructive by comparison.
In reply to Matt B :
This pretty typical. Every year we spout off about perceived transgressions, then get over it and start on next year's build. I was an initial doubter when I first saw some of the cars in person, but now I get it. I did OK with my sub $1900 Miata this year. I went to Gainesville for four events as a spectator before I made the leap to entrant, and I'm glad I finally did. You should consider coming to spectate if a car build isn't in the cards, it's fun either way.
DeadSkunk said:In reply to Matt B :
This pretty typical. Every year we spout off about perceived transgressions, then get over it and start on next year's build. I was an initial doubter when I first saw some of the cars in person, but now I get it. I did OK with my sub $1900 Miata this year. I went to Gainesville for four events as a spectator before I made the leap to entrant, and I'm glad I finally did. You should consider coming to spectate if a car build isn't in the cards, it's fun either way.
The best part about your entry is that i know who you are on here now
here's hoping my Private pm to the Nelsons have released the tension they may have with me, There pm to me has put this to bed.
dculberson do you build cars, I do, I work on them for a living, I even tried to help you out because you have a young family. I belive even the Nelsons understand where I was coming from , and as said I think were ok. Now I might Question his HP numbers to Go 9's 'cause I've made 500 and couldn't get Close to that But a well Sorted Car is better than what i had, My Forte was Round track.
anyway I have my work cut out for me. and did learn a LOT
GTXVette said:here's hoping my Private pm to the Nelsons have released the tension they may have with me, There pm to me has put this to bed.
dculberson do you build cars, I do, I work on them for a living, I even tried to help you out because you have a young family. I belive even the Nelsons understand where I was coming from , and as said I think were ok. Now I might Question his HP numbers to Go 9's 'cause I've made 500 and couldn't get Close to that But a well Sorted Car is better than what i had, My Forte was Round track.
anyway I have my work cut out for me. and did learn a LOT
I hope so. I'm glad they handled their replies gracefully. When someone comes to the challenge to experience it the last thing I expect is to get home to their keyboard and question the competitors very publicly and accusingly.
I don't feel the need to defend myself if ever accused of anything, my conscience is clear, but if you've gotten the night/weekend calls from andrew and calvin that I have while they're asking for LS info and checking to make sure my build is on track while trying to salvage some pistons from a rusted up block, you would come away with a greater appreciation for what they can accomplish. Andrew's email isn't flywithjunk for no reason. He's a cheapskate in the most endearing sense i can use that word in.
Make sure to come say hi next year and we can have a laugh together.
GTXVette said:here's hoping my Private pm to the Nelsons have released the tension they may have with me, There pm to me has put this to bed.
dculberson do you build cars, I do, I work on them for a living, I even tried to help you out because you have a young family. I belive even the Nelsons understand where I was coming from , and as said I think were ok. Now I might Question his HP numbers to Go 9's 'cause I've made 500 and couldn't get Close to that But a well Sorted Car is better than what i had, My Forte was Round track.
anyway I have my work cut out for me. and did learn a LOT
It's all good. John was the person who I cut short in a conversation when the wife needed me. I left the conversation knowing I needed to get back to him and missed seeing him at a better time.
HP numbers. Crazy conversations will always circulate around them. I suggest that folks use the on line calculators. I have developed my own equations. I know where they came from and what the limitations are in the empirically derived formula. At the end of the day, we race cars and not dynos. That's why I hate HP conversations.
Stefan said:In reply to Matt B :
Yeah, in fact there were some that were much, much worse. This is pretty tame and fairly constructive by comparison.
Yup
Maybe I have a different approach. I only spend a few mins in the lanes looking at Andrew's Z but I instead of looking at it with an No way could that be $2017 I looked at it with Where did he save money? Within minutes I saw multiple items that he saved money to put where it counts. I also learned that free melted lexan is better than spending $40 on your nice new lexan.
It is easy to disbelieve the Nelson's capabilities when watching from the screen. I recommend you go and see and then you too, like myself, will be a believer.
I will ask the other competitors this... What did you adjust on your car for Friday night's specific dew point or barometric pressure, or what ever it was that Andrew was monitoring? Yeah, that level of attention to detail.
DeadSkunk said:In reply to Matt B :
This pretty typical. Every year we spout off about perceived transgressions, then get over it and start on next year's build. I was an initial doubter when I first saw some of the cars in person, but now I get it. I did OK with my sub $1900 Miata this year. I went to Gainesville for four events as a spectator before I made the leap to entrant, and I'm glad I finally did. You should consider coming to spectate if a car build isn't in the cards, it's fun either way.
A Mason does not look at a pile of blocks and says I am building a wall, if he is one of us he says I am building a cathedral. We are building cars with $2017. We are not building $2017 cars. Everyone on the outside misses that point. Everyone on the inside takes pride in it.
Stampie said:Maybe I have a different approach. I only spend a few mins in the lanes looking at Andrew's Z but I instead of looking at it with an No way could that be $2017 I looked at it with Where did he save money? Within minutes I saw multiple items that he saved money to put where it counts. I also learned that free melted lexan is better than spending $40 on your nice new lexan.
Funny story. In 2004 I came to my first Challenge. I was convinced I could build cheap cars. I was schooled. In 13 Challenges, I have learned how to cut $3-400 out of builds I did pre-2004. That is why I love seeing the cars parked together under the pavillion. It's class room time. I learn a new trick EVERY time.
You'll need to log in to post.
