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Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/25/19 4:24 a.m.

It another assembly to spring a leak. Another assembly to warranty.  I'd bet 95% never see a track. Why add it if only 5% are ever going to need it?

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/25/19 8:28 a.m.
te72 said:
z31maniac said:
Mr_Clutch42 said:

In reply to bcp2011 :

For the 15+, did they figure out how to fix the engine oil overheating? I specifically remember that being an odd problem for a new sports car.

On track, no. They need an oil cooler. So do new Miata's, Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, etc.

I'm not sure why this seems odd.

I'm not sure why any car that has these sorts of intentions is sold without an oil cooler, honestly. Sure, it's an extra $100 or so, but surely that isn't gonna make or break enough sales that it is worth NOT setting the car up correctl from the factory?

 

I mean, the new car has a warranty. That warranty presumably covers engine damage due to oil that's pushed past its limits, I would think. I guess the easiest thing to do would be to recommend a particular oil for track use.

Think of the early GT350s that didn't have the engine or trans cooler, why would Ford do that? 

Like Appleseed said, no point in adding cost and complexity when most don't need it. 

There is also the fact that synthetic is good to 300F, and most modern cars will put the car in limp mode to protect it when oil gets that hot.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/25/19 10:42 a.m.

I do applaud Chevy for offering a track pack on their performance vehicles and going above and beyond on warranties as well.  Toyoburu knows that the car will be tracked, so why not make track components an option?  Obviously the same goes for all the other performance car manufacturers...

Having said that, probably not worth it to install an oil cooler on every car when only a few will even put it to good use... 

AlcantaraFTW
AlcantaraFTW New Reader
2/25/19 11:06 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Ford did it because they offered two packages initally. A Tech package and a Track package. They operated under the (imo safe) assumption that the people who were going to track the car would buy the track package. If I remember right, the packages were mutually exclusive too, meaning one could not order both for the same car.

What happened was a bunch of people ordered the Tech package, then tracked the car, overheated it and bitched and moaned about Ford not putting enough cooling in. So Ford made the Track package standard, and upped the base price on the GT350s by $8k+.

AlcantaraFTW
AlcantaraFTW New Reader
2/25/19 11:09 a.m.
z31maniac said:
Mr_Clutch42 said:

In reply to bcp2011 :

For the 15+, did they figure out how to fix the engine oil overheating? I specifically remember that being an odd problem for a new sports car.

On track, no. They need an oil cooler. So do new Miata's, Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes, etc.

I'm not sure why this seems odd.

I think the real issue here is that Subaru specs 0w20 oil, and does not support track use like GM would. GM has language in their manuals for "if you're going to the track, switch to X oil weight, otherwise use Y".

One of the first things people suggest for tracking the twins is using a non-resource conserving 5w30 oil to help manage heat better, then installing an oil cooler later once needed. You could probably overheat that 0w20 on the street pretty easily...

te72
te72 Reader
2/27/19 10:09 p.m.

Points well made on both sides guys. I'm personally of the opinion that I'd prefer a well engineered system from the factory, not because I can't do the work, but because the factory has the resources to spec out a proper sized cooler, and buy enough of them that it is economical. They have that advantage over me, a knucklehead with a lot of theory, and just enough tools and determination to give it a shot. Fortunately in my case it seems successful for my car.

 

That said, I've heard that an engineer wants to make the best car they can, both from a performance and packaging perspective (legitimately, despite how much I curse the engineer that designed THAT part to be put in THAT spot, grr!), and they're often shut down by the marketing department of a company that tells the execs that nobody will benefit from such a design, or that they won't be able to sell it. In my experience with a few different marketing departments over the years... sounds about right. Obviously exceptions to the rule (see GM, Porsche) and I'm sure there are folks in marketing that do a fantastic job by us enthusiasts (hey, the Miata is still getting made, after all...), but in my experience they are not the norm.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/28/19 8:49 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

It's for sure not the norm given we are such a tiny part of the market.  Sports cars are already rare, and then on top of that maybe 1% of people that buy sports cars actually take it to a track?  Plus a lot of us are not buyers of these sports cars when new, so we have even less influence on the products being offered by the manufacturers.  Not defending the platform, but to me what they've done is the right business decision.  What GM is doing for their track pack in terms of engineering, design, etc. has to be a money loser.  

 

racerfink
racerfink UltraDork
2/28/19 12:26 p.m.

The 2019 Camaro 2.0t 1LE comes with an oil cooler already installed.  It also gets better fuel mileage and costs LESS than the 86 GT.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2019/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-first-drive-review/

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/28/19 12:44 p.m.
racerfink said:

The 2019 Camaro 2.0t 1LE comes with an oil cooler already installed.  It also gets better fuel mileage and costs LESS than the 86 GT.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2019/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-first-drive-review/

That car is fantastic... So tempted by it, and the only thing to complain about is the extra 500lbs.  

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/28/19 2:24 p.m.
bcp2011 said:
racerfink said:

The 2019 Camaro 2.0t 1LE comes with an oil cooler already installed.  It also gets better fuel mileage and costs LESS than the 86 GT.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2019/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-first-drive-review/

That car is fantastic... So tempted by it, and the only thing to complain about is the extra 500lbs.  

I'm also tempted by this as well. Although I don't know if I could actually only a Pony car with a 4cyl. I know the SS 1LE is far above my skill level and another $14k or so MSRP. There's just something weird to me about buying the 4 banger when there is a V8 available. 

I wonder how much weight could be pulled out of the car without hurting it's DD qualities.

 

They mention the Recaro's and the BOSE stereo in the article, which would raise the price of the car tested to $32,990............more than an 86GT which starts @ $28,635 + $900 for nav.

Still a lot of car for the money.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
2/28/19 5:50 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I think these things come with massive discounts rather than MSRP so not sure if the delta still exist out the door.  

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/28/19 6:25 p.m.

The Camaro gets 20 city/30 highway. My FR-S get consistent 27 city/ 34 highway...so, no.

docwyte
docwyte UltraDork
2/28/19 7:26 p.m.

That turns into an insignificant amount of money extra to spend on fuel annually.  If you want a Camaro, don't let the mpg difference stop you.

te72
te72 Reader
2/28/19 11:13 p.m.

In reply to bcp2011 :

You make a lot of good points here. Unfortunately, we are not usually the new car buyer, as it's just not economical for most of us to buy a new car AND race it. One or the other, for most of the folks I know.

 

As for GM's track packs, they may lose a bit of money, but given that it's a fringe car (I bet the Camaro is outsold by the Equinox 20:1), I can't imagine it's a bad idea. The marketing image in doing so is fantastic, if nothing else. I may not buy a Camaro, but you know what? I'd certainly recommend one if the right person was asking for my input.

 

As for comparing the 6th gen Camaro to the 86, my biggest question would be in regards to the steering feel. The 86 had excellent feedback through the wheel. I can't speak to modern Camaro steering, but the 4th gen I had, it *had* a steering wheel, that's about the most polite thing I can say about it. I didn't mind it, it wasn't BAD, but it wasn't particularly good either.

te72
te72 Reader
2/28/19 11:16 p.m.
docwyte said:

That turns into an insignificant amount of money extra to spend on fuel annually.  If you want a Camaro, don't let the mpg difference stop you.

I had this same thought the other night, about daily driving a Supra again, versus the Miata I have now. Considering it's all in town driving, and not a whole lot of it at that, does 15mpg versus 23mpg really make all that much of a difference? In my particular case, it adds up to about $150 a year more to drive a Supra. Way more rewarding, at least for me, even though I love driving the Miata too.

racerfink
racerfink UltraDork
3/1/19 5:15 a.m.
Appleseed said:

The Camaro gets 20 city/30 highway. My FR-S get consistent 27 city/ 34 highway...so, no.

My V6 Camaro consistently gets 31 highway, with a 50 mile avg best of 36.4.  My dad’s 2.0t had a 50 mile avg. best of 42.2.  When I drove it from San Antonio to Victoria, Tx., I was getting 38.  So, much like your car does better than expected numbers, the Camaro does too.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
3/1/19 8:45 a.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to z31maniac :

I think these things come with massive discounts rather than MSRP so not sure if the delta still exist out the door.  

Possibly, I haven't shopped them. I did look around. It looks like even on 91 a tune is worth ~40hp. A few places offering E85 kits with just an ethanol sensor, some fuel tube and a tune............which I find interesting since the GM team said they needed a bigger in-tank fuel pump to push more than about E55 in the GRM article recently.

There is one company, with very bad reviews, offering a tune/E85/turbo upgrade for $2500 that is supposed to take the engine to nearly 400hp.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
3/1/19 8:46 a.m.
te72 said:

In reply to bcp2011 :

You make a lot of good points here. Unfortunately, we are not usually the new car buyer, as it's just not economical for most of us to buy a new car AND race it. One or the other, for most of the folks I know.

 

As for GM's track packs, they may lose a bit of money, but given that it's a fringe car (I bet the Camaro is outsold by the Equinox 20:1), I can't imagine it's a bad idea. The marketing image in doing so is fantastic, if nothing else. I may not buy a Camaro, but you know what? I'd certainly recommend one if the right person was asking for my input.

 

As for comparing the 6th gen Camaro to the 86, my biggest question would be in regards to the steering feel. The 86 had excellent feedback through the wheel. I can't speak to modern Camaro steering, but the 4th gen I had, it *had* a steering wheel, that's about the most polite thing I can say about it. I didn't mind it, it wasn't BAD, but it wasn't particularly good either.

I can't speak for the turbo 4, but I did test drive an SS 1LE a year ago, all the controls and cockpit feel amazing. Throttle and steering were great as were the brakes. 

(I drove my BRZ there to test drive it)

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
3/1/19 8:47 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

On the steering feel point - I'm not sure as I haven't driven one either.  But I used to have a NA that was down to ~2100lbs and with power steering stripped away, and compared to that thing my FRS doesn't feel as sharp even with poly bushings / steering rack lockdown / dampers & springs.  So based on conversations I've had with people in the paddock it seems like weight is inversely correlated with steering feel.  Now this could be because the FRS has an electrical PS rack, or a bunch of other things, but this is why I'm so sensitive to weight.  The world just seems to be a better place when I'm in a low weight car (all relative of course). Outside of Miata/Boxster/Cayman it's hard to get anything less than 3000lbs these days. 

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
3/1/19 8:50 a.m.
z31maniac said:

Possibly, I haven't shopped them. I did look around. It looks like even on 91 a tune is worth ~40hp. A few places offering E85 kits with just an ethanol sensor, some fuel tube and a tune............which I find interesting since the GM team said they needed a bigger in-tank fuel pump to push more than about E55 in the GRM article recently.

There is one company, with very bad reviews, offering a tune/E85/turbo upgrade for $2500 that is supposed to take the engine to nearly 400hp.

I'm sure with enough time there will be options to go to 600hp or more.  I remember reading magazines in the 90s of JDM Silvias pumping out more than that from the SR20s!

racerfink
racerfink UltraDork
3/1/19 9:05 a.m.
z31maniac said:
bcp2011 said:
racerfink said:

The 2019 Camaro 2.0t 1LE comes with an oil cooler already installed.  It also gets better fuel mileage and costs LESS than the 86 GT.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/camaro/2019/2019-chevrolet-camaro-turbo-1le-first-drive-review/

That car is fantastic... So tempted by it, and the only thing to complain about is the extra 500lbs.  

I'm also tempted by this as well. Although I don't know if I could actually only a Pony car with a 4cyl. I know the SS 1LE is far above my skill level and another $14k or so MSRP. There's just something weird to me about buying the 4 banger when there is a V8 available. 

I wonder how much weight could be pulled out of the car without hurting it's DD qualities.

 

They mention the Recaro's and the BOSE stereo in the article, which would raise the price of the car tested to $32,990............more than an 86GT which starts @ $28,635 + $900 for nav.

Still a lot of car for the money.

The TRD edition, with the track suspension and Brembo’s (which makes it a 1LE competitor) starts at $33k.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
3/1/19 9:47 a.m.

Yeah, but it's a competitor on price, not on actual features. Different dampers, exhaust, "Brembos," and interior. The Camaro has engine/trans/diff coolers, "Brembos," more rubber, etc. 

If you wanted to track a twin, get the base, an oil cooler, AP brakes (which shave like 20lbs off the nose), a real suspension (Ground Control/RCE/etc), wide wheels and sticky tires, for the same $33k. Then you'd have a twin you could actually use at the track without worrying about brake fade or high oil temps.

 

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
3/1/19 11:42 a.m.

If we're talking track-only car, personally, I want the light and nimble car over the point-and-shoot bruiser.  But 99% of us aren't buying a late-model Mustang, Camaro, Miata or 86 to build a track-only car, so how enjoyable the car is to drive on the street and to live with day to day is super important.

I haven't yet driven a newer Camaro -- does it come anywhere near the driving experience of the 86 or Miata at street speeds?  The Mustang sure doesn't.

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
3/1/19 5:22 p.m.
nderwater said:

If we're talking track-only car, personally, I want the light and nimble car over the point-and-shoot bruiser.  But 99% of us aren't buying a late-model Mustang, Camaro, Miata or 86 to build a track-only car, so how enjoyable the car is to drive on the street and to live with day to day is super important.

I haven't yet driven a newer Camaro -- does it come anywhere near the driving experience of the 86 or Miata at street speeds?  The Mustang sure doesn't.

Totally subjective of course,  but for every day duty I preferred the Mustang GT,  then Camaro SS, then the RF Miata.  I have rented all of them in the last couple of years and spent 3-4 days each.  I never rented a BRZ,  but spent some time in one my buddy owned and would probably tie it with the Miata.  Had it had a smoother engine I would have ranked a little higher.  The Miata handled great and I really liked the targa,  but it was buzzy and cramped.

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