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Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
5/15/19 9:15 p.m.

That blue looks awesome!  If you run the 113mph trap speed and a 3550lb race weight through a horsepower calculator it comes up closer to 400 than 335. But, I would like to see it replicated a few times before putting much weight in it. I was recently looking up specs of 3.6L Panameras and one magazine claimed they did a 5.0 0-60 in it. Everyone else was 6ish. Things that make you go hmmmm.

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/15/19 9:16 p.m.

In reply to Cotton :

Phantom Matte Gray looks great too. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/15/19 9:17 p.m.
Snrub said:

Is it possible the Supra and the Z4 have the same underrated power, but BMW asked Toyota to list a lower number to justify a the price difference?

The grip numbers are particularly impressive given the description of the ride quality.

There has been lots of speculation all the modern BMW turbo I6s are at least a little underrated.

Don't discount this car has 365lb-ft at 1600 RPM up through 5k (at least), it has a transmission that shift super quick, and most definitely have launch control starts. And they obviously know how to get the power down.

And those wheel wells look like they will easily handle another 20-30mm front and rear in section width 

 

I think my 135, 300/300 (again makes that torque from 1400-5200 rpms), using launch control is rated at 4.5 0-60 using launch with 245 rear tires and more weight.

rezisehtnys
rezisehtnys New Reader
5/15/19 11:15 p.m.
Cotton said:

Just checked out the colors on the website.  I really like the blue!

OOOOH, that is nice!  Not enough nice colours out there these days, so I approve.  That and I'm biased towards the blue, indigo, violet spectrum.

te72
te72 Reader
5/15/19 11:54 p.m.

Since we can't multi-reply on here, I'll just throw my replies out there. =)

-"Need" is a very subjective idea. Truthfully, 500whp is about perfect in my Supra, but it's 30 years old and built to suit that level. The Mk4 I suspect is downright tame at 500whp, so I can see why a lot of them seem to be at the 600-800whp level and still street driven. As for the drag racing and highway pulls, hang around the Supra crowd enough, that's a surprisingly important metric to them, those cars were always pretty great for that, if you could drive. Straight line has never really been my game, but it's still fun, and a major reason the Supra is still so iconic.

 

-I get that some folks are upset about it being called a Supra, but marinate on this a moment: What else has Toyota made in the last 50 years that has two doors, rwd, inline 6, and sporting intentions? From my rather extensive history and oddball knowledge of their lineup, I can confidently say that only the Crown Coupes, the Soarer, and the Supra fit the mold. Crown, most people have forgotten, Soarer, we didn't receive in the US under that name, so it's useless for the marketing department, which leaves us with Supra. Much as I understand the sour grapes, I could care less. Let the car prove itself and earn the name. Part of me wants this new car to spank some OG Supra ass just to show people how far technology has come. So, what ELSE would you call it?

 

-For the people baffled by the acceleration, ignore the horsepower, and instead focus on the torque. 365 ft-lbs at only 1600 rpm, plus an automatic that probably has well thought out gearing. Really isn't all that surprising. What would be surprising is if it carries that speed on the top end. I'm not as familiar, time wise, with what constitutes a good performance up top. My car pulls harder from 60-150 than it does from 0-60, and I've never bothered to actually instrument my car's performance other than against myself and friend at autocross tracks. Still... look at that TOP gear acceleration, THAT is what is most impressive to me. My car won't even spool at those speeds in top gear!

 

-I'll admit, I'm cautiously optimistic about BMW learning how to build a proper turbo engine (after all, look what they did with, what was it, the M10, in 80's F1?) for the modern era, but... I'm not going to bet $50k on it. Like I said before, these will make fantastic used cars, assuming they hold up. I'd love to revisit this in 5 years, see how many of these cars make it to 100k without any noteworthy issues. When I opened up my 1jz after putting five years of hard daily driving (between the racing, the clutches, and towing other cars home), we were all pretty amazed to find bearings that could have been put right back in, they looked new, no joke. In all that time, I only had to replace one rubber coolant line to the front turbo that I should have replaced when we put the engine in the car. That's what I call reliable. That's what I expect from a Toyota Supra.

 

-I'll also admit that I'm not as familiar with BMW's more modern turbo stuff. How durable are these 500+whp cars in the long run? I mean, you can make the power with anything just about, for a while... What sort of maintenance is required? So far my fairly highly strung 87 Supra has required oil changes and a sway bar end link end joint replacing. Still sorting it out, but the only things that have caused headaches have been of the "built in a garage" variety and are expected of a car like this. That said, it's been reliable, and puts down the power without fail.

 

-Manual swaps will be a thing, I'd be surprised if Grannas Racing doesn't have a Tremec setup for the Mk5 within a year or so. I've even seen a couple examples of Supras with BMW's 7-speed DCT, so it might just be a case of the grass being greener elsewhere. I still think the auto-only approach has as much to do with regulation as anything else.

 

All in, I'm excited to see what the new car can do, but I've never been in the "new car" market so I'm just gonna be over here on the fence until this car establishes itself for the long term. =)

rezisehtnys
rezisehtnys New Reader
5/16/19 1:23 a.m.

Well there's the 2000GT that's right at 49 years at the youngest. wink  They could call it the 3000GT!  No wait... cheeky  I don't have an issue with the name plate being used, and I can see where they tried to pay homage to the MKIV at least in the design.  I see MKIV in the headlights and the rear of the car with how it's shaped, but maybe that's just me.  Honestly my only "gripe" is not having an option of the manual when the Z4 does, or at least in Europe the Z4 does anyway from what I last read.  Otherwise I like it, if I had the money that one thing would keep it off my relatively short shopping list but I'm a manual snob(and just a snob in general with cars). laugh  I'm just happy it and the 86 even exist, at least they somewhat care enough to venture outside of the appliance market lately.

NickD
NickD PowerDork
5/16/19 6:28 a.m.

The Chief Engineer for the new Toyota Supra, Tetsuya Tada, has told DriveTribe that he hasn't ruled out a manual gearbox for the new sports car – and that one has been tested.

Speaking at the European launch for the Supra, he laid out his thoughts on the automatic-versus-manual debate.

"I’ve been asked this 100 million times across the world," he admits. "There is a website that polls what you want in new Supra, and manual transmission is always high on the list. I get a notification when people vote for it!"

But it sounds like Toyota is listening. "We’ve considered it and things have been tested," he admits.

"People should give the automatic gearbox a try," he continues. "But come to it with an open mind. If having driven it people still want a manual, then of course as with normal sports cars there’ll be yearly updates – and we could introduce it."

So there you have it. Toyota's tested a manual gearbox in the new Supra and if people are vocal enough they might just give it to us"


https://drivetribe.com/p/toyota-has-tested-a-manual-gearbox-ZJaq6eWtS-iRqVT-4SP96Q?iid=PIXYrnpwTSSHZ0DV7xMIHw&utm_source=organic&utm_medium=fb&utm_campaign=main+


Here's how I see this playing out:

>Toyota announces possibility of manual transmission

>People hold out for the manual transmission option

>Sales are below expectations

>Toyota kills the Zupr4 due to low sales and barely any autos and no manuals are built.

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/16/19 7:02 a.m.

In reply to NickD :

I haven’t been following the whole development story so taking what you posted as face value here. I can totally see the scenario you described playing out. And the easy way around that would be for them to ask for a 5% deposit for manual buyers and if there’s enough demand they’ll make it. If not they return the money, obviously. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable ask and the true buyers are likely willing to pony up the deposit (look at what people did with the Tesla 3). 

Trying to convince the buyers that the auto is good enough isn’t the answer.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/16/19 7:07 a.m.
te72 said:

Since we can't multi-reply on here, I'll just throw my replies out there. =)

-"Need" is a very subjective idea. Truthfully, 500whp is about perfect in my Supra, but it's 30 years old and built to suit that level. The Mk4 I suspect is downright tame at 500whp, so I can see why a lot of them seem to be at the 600-800whp level and still street driven. As for the drag racing and highway pulls, hang around the Supra crowd enough, that's a surprisingly important metric to them, those cars were always pretty great for that, if you could drive. Straight line has never really been my game, but it's still fun, and a major reason the Supra is still so iconic.

 

-I get that some folks are upset about it being called a Supra, but marinate on this a moment: What else has Toyota made in the last 50 years that has two doors, rwd, inline 6, and sporting intentions? From my rather extensive history and oddball knowledge of their lineup, I can confidently say that only the Crown Coupes, the Soarer, and the Supra fit the mold. Crown, most people have forgotten, Soarer, we didn't receive in the US under that name, so it's useless for the marketing department, which leaves us with Supra. Much as I understand the sour grapes, I could care less. Let the car prove itself and earn the name. Part of me wants this new car to spank some OG Supra ass just to show people how far technology has come. So, what ELSE would you call it?

 

-For the people baffled by the acceleration, ignore the horsepower, and instead focus on the torque. 365 ft-lbs at only 1600 rpm, plus an automatic that probably has well thought out gearing. Really isn't all that surprising. What would be surprising is if it carries that speed on the top end. I'm not as familiar, time wise, with what constitutes a good performance up top. My car pulls harder from 60-150 than it does from 0-60, and I've never bothered to actually instrument my car's performance other than against myself and friend at autocross tracks. Still... look at that TOP gear acceleration, THAT is what is most impressive to me. My car won't even spool at those speeds in top gear!

 

-I'll admit, I'm cautiously optimistic about BMW learning how to build a proper turbo engine (after all, look what they did with, what was it, the M10, in 80's F1?) for the modern era, but... I'm not going to bet $50k on it. Like I said before, these will make fantastic used cars, assuming they hold up. I'd love to revisit this in 5 years, see how many of these cars make it to 100k without any noteworthy issues. When I opened up my 1jz after putting five years of hard daily driving (between the racing, the clutches, and towing other cars home), we were all pretty amazed to find bearings that could have been put right back in, they looked new, no joke. In all that time, I only had to replace one rubber coolant line to the front turbo that I should have replaced when we put the engine in the car. That's what I call reliable. That's what I expect from a Toyota Supra.

 

-I'll also admit that I'm not as familiar with BMW's more modern turbo stuff. How durable are these 500+whp cars in the long run? I mean, you can make the power with anything just about, for a while... What sort of maintenance is required? So far my fairly highly strung 87 Supra has required oil changes and a sway bar end link end joint replacing. Still sorting it out, but the only things that have caused headaches have been of the "built in a garage" variety and are expected of a car like this. That said, it's been reliable, and puts down the power without fail.

 

-Manual swaps will be a thing, I'd be surprised if Grannas Racing doesn't have a Tremec setup for the Mk5 within a year or so. I've even seen a couple examples of Supras with BMW's 7-speed DCT, so it might just be a case of the grass being greener elsewhere. I still think the auto-only approach has as much to do with regulation as anything else.

 

All in, I'm excited to see what the new car can do, but I've never been in the "new car" market so I'm just gonna be over here on the fence until this car establishes itself for the long term. =)

Highway pulls are simply about building a dyno queen, then being stupid enough to drive nearly 3x the legal limit on public highways. I don't find that stuff impressive. 

 

Already mentioned gearing, torque, launch control, etc.

 

As for the N54/N55/B58.....................the only issues I have seen/read about are, dumbasses with a poor tune popping their engines.....but that can happen on any car, even naturally aspirated. I've heard of exactly ONE case of an N55 eating the #6 rod bearing because the oil pump sensor failed and wasn't pumping enough. The N55 cars went to an electric oil pump instead of chain driven.

 

Just like anything, if you build an engine to more than twice what it came with and beat on mercilessly, eventually you'll break it. But plenty of guys with tens of thousands of miles, hard miles like HPDE (not 10 second blasts on the highway or down the strip).

 

I guess since I drive a DCT car, I don't really care about all the "It doesn't have a manual" stuff. Being able to leave the car in auto when commuting on city streets is nice vs being constantly on and off the clutch. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/16/19 7:10 a.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to NickD :

I haven’t been following the whole development story so taking what you posted as face value here. I can totally see the scenario you described playing out. And the easy way around that would be for them to ask for a 5% deposit for manual buyers and if there’s enough demand they’ll make it. If not they return the money, obviously. I don’t think it’s an unreasonable ask and the true buyers are likely willing to pony up the deposit (look at what people did with the Tesla 3). 

Trying to convince the buyers that the auto is good enough isn’t the answer.

A $3k deposit on a car that I might receive in a year? That's going to be pretty a hard sell. Even when I spoke to the Miata dealers, and they are already offer the model I want, if I want to custom build it with certain options and color combo, they said it could take as many as 4-5 months to get here.............for a car that is already built. Because of getting into the build schedule, taking a boat across the Pacific, etc.

Not one that hasn't even been built and tested yet. 

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
5/16/19 7:49 a.m.

I used to worship a Caribbean Blue Mk4TT at the local dealership when I was in high school.  I always loved the combination of refinement and speed.  I think I like the new body style, particularly in that blue above. If I was in the market to replace my Mustang, this would be a major contender. I wonder if I could talk my wife in to DDing one.....

I also think that this may be one of those cars that looks much better in person than in photos. Some cars pull that off but I've never understood how. I think it has to do with the fact that the human eye/brain combo has some dimensional aspects that flat images just don't duplicate.

Dave M
Dave M Reader
5/16/19 8:05 a.m.

Who is going to buy these? Who is the conquest buyer? People who want an automatic Cayman but want to save some cash or hate 4-bangers? Vette buyers who want something different and slower?

I just don't get the lack of the manual. It's not so fast that you need an automatic, and for this kind of car, manuals rule.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/16/19 8:20 a.m.
Dave M said:

I just don't get the lack of the manual. It's not so fast that you need an automatic, and for this kind of car, manuals rule.

This has been discussed ad nauseum over the years, more and more people are buying the auto version of performance cars. I just read an article on carbuzz, that even with the BMW M cars, the take rate for manuals is below 20% for 2017. It was 23% for the 2016 Corvette. 40% for the Mustang GT in 2015. 

People don't buy them, so the manufacturers slowly quit making them. 

 

EDIT: These were the best numbers I could find for "manual take rate." But these cars are in very different price points and types of buyer as well.

"Over half of the Mazda MX-5 Miatas sold in the U.S. are manuals, and 80 percent of Subaru BRZWRXs and STIs are sticks."

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/16/19 8:57 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

You have a preference and I get that. But the Tesla example still stands and people waited much longer. I’m just saying that they should offer that option and if there’s not enough buyers then so be it.  Those who wants a manual will wait (like me, but N of 1 is rarely a good sample size). 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/16/19 9:13 a.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to z31maniac :

You have a preference and I get that. But the Tesla example still stands and people waited much longer. I’m just saying that they should offer that option and if there’s not enough buyers then so be it.  Those who wants a manual will wait (like me, but N of 1 is rarely a good sample size). 

Depends on the car. My 350Z was manual. The '13 Mustang GT I ordered new, and the '15 BRZ I bought new were manuals. The NC Miata I had as a DD was a manual.  The 135i is while small in size and "sporty" still leans toward GT with sound deadening and comfort, so I wanted the fancy gearbox for it.

And unless I pony up nearly $60k for a new Supra in a year or two, whatever car I buy next will likely be a manual. I really want to see what Subaru is going to do with the next-gen BRZ and STi. But there is also something about an SS 1LE or a new Mustang GT PP2 car that is very appealing because of the V8 madness! 

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/16/19 9:37 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I wasn’t questioning your desire or history for manual cars. I was saying you as a buyer may not want to wait, but others might for the right options, and that Toyota should at least open that as an option with really no downside. 

JG Pasterjak
JG Pasterjak Production/Art Director
5/16/19 12:45 p.m.
rezisehtnys said:
Cotton said:

Just checked out the colors on the website.  I really like the blue!

OOOOH, that is nice!  Not enough nice colours out there these days, so I approve.  That and I'm biased towards the blue, indigo, violet spectrum.

I really like blue cars, too, but the Supra blue isn't this nice in person. It's dark. REALLY dark. So dark I kept mixing it up with the black car when they'd pull into line. That flat grey is amazing, though.

ShinnyGroove
ShinnyGroove New Reader
5/16/19 1:33 p.m.

My thinking on the transmission.  If I have a car that's 100% toy, I want a manual.  This is the philosophy with my turbo NA Miata, which also doesn't have AC, power steering, etc.

But if I spend $50k on a new car, it's going to get daily driven or at least get 80%+ of my driving miles, with a cheap pickup on standby for bigger jobs.  And if I'm putting substantial commuter miles on it, I'm not driving a manual.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy.

I have to think that a lot of potential buyers share my logic.  Cayman S PDK would be pretty ideal for me, except for the price.  If this Supra performs similarly (including the transmission), I would definitely be a potential buyer.

rezisehtnys
rezisehtnys New Reader
5/16/19 4:27 p.m.

Well everyone is different, my brother that commutes through traffic every day uses a manual 335i.  Before that it was a manual Genesis 2.0T, and before that a manual Maxima(unicorn edition), and there was even a manual Audi A4 2.0 Quattro thrown in the mix with the Genesis.  I can understand where one would prefer an automatic, even if they can drive and like manuals, for their daily driver but he and I are stubborn. laugh  Especially if you're putting all of your eggs into one basket like us, as it were.  I think it also depends on the clutch weight, something light isn't an issue really even in traffic and that's with my fibromyalgia.  Of course I also adjust accordingly, I don't bother moving forward until there's a gap big enough I deem it worth the energy of going in and out of first.  Not like we're going anywhere and I'm not going to kill myself just to appease someone that wants to creep up every inch possible the entire time.  Besides, even if you're in an automatic you should do the same as it's not good for the transmission to stay in drive with your foot on the brake the entire time.

Also that's a shame on the blue, looks really nice from that rendered image.

yupididit
yupididit UltraDork
5/16/19 8:24 p.m.
rezisehtnys said:

Besides, even if you're in an automatic you should do the same as it's not good for the transmission to stay in drive with your foot on the brake the entire time.

 

That's news to me. But, why is it bad for the transmission? 

ProDarwin
ProDarwin UltimaDork
5/16/19 8:32 p.m.
ShinnyGroove said:

if I spend $50k on a new car, it's going to get daily driven or at least get 80%+ of my driving miles, with a cheap pickup on standby for bigger jobs.  And if I'm putting substantial commuter miles on it, I'm not driving a manual.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy.

It always amazes me that in America this paragraph doesn't read:

if I am taking a job/choosing a place to life, Im going to make sure I have a low traffic commute, a short commute, or one that does not require a car.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy."

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
5/16/19 8:43 p.m.

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not to derail the discussion but I read in a book a little while back that the trade off between home space vs commute time is one where people usually make the wrong decision. Shorter commute is almost directly correlated with happiness and an extra room for the visitor is rarely valued (if ever). 

ShinnyGroove
ShinnyGroove New Reader
5/16/19 9:56 p.m.
ProDarwin said:
ShinnyGroove said:

if I spend $50k on a new car, it's going to get daily driven or at least get 80%+ of my driving miles, with a cheap pickup on standby for bigger jobs.  And if I'm putting substantial commuter miles on it, I'm not driving a manual.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy.

It always amazes me that in America this paragraph doesn't read:

if I am taking a job/choosing a place to life, Im going to make sure I have a low traffic commute, a short commute, or one that does not require a car.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy."

FWIW, my office is 10 minutes from my house.  I do have to drive to the airport or out to customers or offsite meetings somewhat regularly, or just to run errands.  Atlanta is a great place to live, but the traffic is pretty much ever-present.  And I don’t want a manual tranny as my daily driver.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/16/19 10:25 p.m.
bcp2011 said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not to derail the discussion but I read in a book a little while back that the trade off between home space vs commute time is one where people usually make the wrong decision. Shorter commute is almost directly correlated with happiness and an extra room for the visitor is rarely valued (if ever). 

This is specifically why I bought a house just  more from than 5 miles from my office. I'm also able to go in early and leave early. Throw in I only go in 3 days per week, and I spend about 50 minutes commuting (all surface streets) and 35 miles commuting every week.

 

If I happen to leave late, my 10 minute commute in the morning can easily turn into 30+ in bumper to bumper 20 mph traffic. That sucks in a manual.

 

More than about 20 minutes I'm not interested in, that's why I don't move to some cities where I could make more. I'd spend it all on housing and increased commuting time.

rezisehtnys
rezisehtnys New Reader
5/16/19 10:35 p.m.
yupididit said:
rezisehtnys said:

Besides, even if you're in an automatic you should do the same as it's not good for the transmission to stay in drive with your foot on the brake the entire time.

 

That's news to me. But, why is it bad for the transmission? 

It keeps the friction packs engaged which wears them and increases heat in the transmission, for short stops like stop lights keep it in drive but for parking lot traffic it'd be better going into park.  Plus then you don't have to worry about your foot slipping off the brake pedal for any reason and then rolling into the car in front of you.  "Inching" is even worse for something like a DSG versus a torque converter automatic.  Though all these new cars with stop start it wouldn't matter and you'd just be better off letting it do its thing.

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