carguy123 UltimaDork
Jan. 7, 2013 10:30 p.m.

I'm just checking, but there's no way to get your hands on one of the new 3 cylinder Fords until the Fiesta brings it here in 2014 is there?

I mean it's not already in something over here, just not turbo'd?

SlickDizzy UberDork
Jan. 7, 2013 10:41 p.m.

The Fiesta will indeed be the first car we get with the engine, and to my knowledge, it isn't/won't be available as a non-turbo anywhere. All prior Fiestas and even the little Ka all used four cylinders.

Paging alfadriver...

bravenrace PowerDork
Jan. 8, 2013 5:39 a.m.

I have a three cylinder Ford in my tractor.

logdog HalfDork
Jan. 8, 2013 5:43 a.m.
bravenrace wrote: I have a three cylinder Ford in my tractor.

Is it a Ford or a Shibaura painted blue?

bravenrace PowerDork
Jan. 8, 2013 6:11 a.m.

In reply to logdog:

A 1974 Ford 3000.

logdog HalfDork
Jan. 8, 2013 6:25 a.m.
bravenrace wrote: In reply to logdog: A 1974 Ford 3000.

Nice choice!

alfadriver PowerDork
Jan. 8, 2013 6:41 a.m.
SlickDizzy wrote: The Fiesta will indeed be the first car we get with the engine, and to my knowledge, it isn't/won't be available as a non-turbo anywhere. All prior Fiestas and even the little Ka all used four cylinders. Paging alfadriver...

Correct.

And while the Focus has the engine in Europe (and is very well liked, apparently), it will only be in the Fiesta. Well, unless targets are not being met by a wide margin.

It's only direct injection and it's only turbo. The DI part makes it a major challenge for any aftermarket tuning (aka, engine swap).

drainoil
drainoil New Reader
Jan. 8, 2013 7:28 a.m.
alfadriver wrote:
SlickDizzy wrote: The Fiesta will indeed be the first car we get with the engine, and to my knowledge, it isn't/won't be available as a non-turbo anywhere. All prior Fiestas and even the little Ka all used four cylinders. Paging alfadriver...

Correct.

And while the Focus has the engine in Europe (and is very well liked, apparently), it will only be in the Fiesta. Well, unless targets are not being met by a wide margin.

It's only direct injection and it's only turbo. The DI part makes it a major challenge for any aftermarket tuning (aka, engine swap).

Any fuel mileage estimates available?

alfadriver PowerDork
Jan. 8, 2013 8:10 a.m.

In reply to drainoil:

I'm waiting for them, too. Right now, the two cars that are the top of my new car list- the Fiesta ST OR the Fiesta 1.0 GTDI.

If the ST is good enough for the fun, I'll do it, or if the 1.0l is fun enough for the economy, that will be it.

GameboyRMH PowerDork
Jan. 8, 2013 8:14 a.m.

Wait, why does DI make swapping the engine into something else a challenge?

Jan. 8, 2013 8:16 a.m.

Well since the SFE model of the Fiesta claims 40 mpg now, I would imagine that this motor should get at least 3-4 mpg better. I imagine the real improvement will be around town.

Ranger50 UberDork
Jan. 8, 2013 8:16 a.m.
GameboyRMH wrote: Wait, why does DI make swapping the engine into something else a challenge?

Fuel pressure and injector control.

GameboyRMH PowerDork
Jan. 8, 2013 8:19 a.m.
Ranger50 wrote:
GameboyRMH wrote: Wait, why does DI make swapping the engine into something else a challenge?

Fuel pressure and injector control.

Well the ECU controls the injectors, which would be swapped across with the engine, and whole fuel systems are often changed when doing carb to EFI swaps...so what's the big deal?

Ranger50 UberDork
Jan. 8, 2013 8:25 a.m.
GameboyRMH wrote:
Ranger50 wrote:
GameboyRMH wrote: Wait, why does DI make swapping the engine into something else a challenge?

Fuel pressure and injector control.

Well the ECU controls the injectors, which would be swapped across with the engine, and whole fuel systems are often changed when doing carb to EFI swaps...so what's the big deal?

Correct, but how are you going to run the CAN-Bus? No bus will lead to limp-in mode, typically. Nothing is "standalone" anymore.

GameboyRMH PowerDork
Jan. 8, 2013 8:33 a.m.

Does it just need a device to act as the CAN master? Various MS boxes can do that.

Jan. 8, 2013 8:37 a.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH:

I smell a business venture!

alfadriver PowerDork
Jan. 8, 2013 8:58 a.m.
GameboyRMH wrote:
Ranger50 wrote:
GameboyRMH wrote: Wait, why does DI make swapping the engine into something else a challenge?

Fuel pressure and injector control.

Well the ECU controls the injectors, which would be swapped across with the engine, and whole fuel systems are often changed when doing carb to EFI swaps...so what's the big deal?

DI injectors are a different animal to PFI injectors. First of all, they run at 65V and not 12V. Second, they also require the voltage trace to be pretty specific, since it takes a little different effort to open the injector when one side is at 2000psi, and the other is low. Both open and close need a pretty specific voltage/current trace.

They also need to be a lot more accurate in a time domain- which isn't all that hard these days for the aftermarket. But most don't do fully sequential- and they have to be for DI- you can't batch fire, inject on the intake and power stroke when it's going directy into the chamber.

As for the fuel system- that also requires a very specific signal that is timed to a few degrees to make the high pressure pump work. And it's normally done on a cam that changes position- so you need a very good VCT controller, too.

Finally- because of the above requirements, calibration is more involved, and requires some bench and dyno time to do.

Can an aftermarket system do it? Sure. But even in the racing world, nobody has a racing ECU for DI. Not sure why- it's not as if it's that hard. But DI work on race engines tend to be done by the OEM or directly with companies like Bosch.

edit- if you are talking about a basic swap. well... I know it's been done once for a show car. And even for us it was a major PITA. If you can figure out how to make the ECU think that all of the vehicle modules are out there working ok- espeically the one for theft- then the idea of swapping this engine into a different car is doable.

pres589 SuperDork
Jan. 8, 2013 9:06 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver:

Sounds kind of like swapping a VW TDi into something; take everything with a data line going to it including the instrument cluster. Right?

The thought of this in, say, a mk1 Escort and its ~2000lb wet weight seems pretty nice, not sure what trans would bolt to it though.

carguy123 UltimaDork
Jan. 8, 2013 9:10 a.m.

Maybe I's dense, but I'm still not seeing the insurmountable issue. All engine swaps are a pain nowadays unless you know all the different pieces to get and keep in place. (theft is the main thing I'm thinking about) Once you know that it's simple.

Are you saying that you can't run a Can-bus on anything but the original car? I've seen can-bus systems offered aftermarket as a way to simplify kit car wiring. Of course it's not cheap, but since you have the system that came with the car what's the issue?

You also said "And even for us it was a major . . . " Who's US?

iceracer UltraDork
Jan. 8, 2013 9:10 a.m.

The 3 cyl 1.0 L has app. the same HP as the present 1.6 L NA but a huge increase in torque.

SlickDizzy UberDork
Jan. 8, 2013 9:16 a.m.
carguy123 wrote: You also said "And even for us it was a major . . . " Who's US?

Alfadriver works for Ford.

Conquest351 SuperDork
Jan. 8, 2013 9:16 a.m.

Direct replacement engine on a Geo Metro?

alfadriver PowerDork
Jan. 8, 2013 9:21 a.m.

In reply to carguy123:

Nothing is insurmountable. But it is worth the time and cost to do it?

You can run a can bus anywhere. The messages need to be right. And the number of modules need to be right. I have no idea how many modules are on the '14 Fiesta.

All I can say is that if you think it's that easy- go for it. Instead of hoping "someone" will do it for you- do it. Nobody is stopping you.

We did it on a hotrod that had a 3.5l EcoBoost, and I know that a Formula Ford was done with this engine.

alfadriver PowerDork
Jan. 8, 2013 9:23 a.m.
pres589 wrote: In reply to alfadriver: Sounds kind of like swapping a VW TDi into something; take everything with a data line going to it including the instrument cluster. Right? The thought of this in, say, a mk1 Escort and its ~2000lb wet weight seems pretty nice, not sure what trans would bolt to it though.

off the top of my head- instrument cluster, PATS, ABS/TC module, other dash module, air bag module, and I know there are more. Some kind of response will be needed to get it to operate.

carguy123 UltimaDork
Jan. 8, 2013 9:28 a.m.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to carguy123: Nothing is insurmountable. But it is worth the time and cost to do it? We did it on a hotrod that had a 3.5l EcoBoost, and I know that a Formula Ford was done with this engine.

You just answered your own question.

So what's does Ford or the ecu see as a Module?

I'm presuming you're saying that if ANY Module is missing the ecu goes into a limp mode. Surely it's not EVERY sensor on the whole car, that would make ecu programming much more complicated than it needs to be and much more difficult for Ford to use this engine in other cars.

EDIT: other responses posted while I was composing seems to indicate you want a donor vehicle as opposed to a junkyard engine, which is pretty much the best way on any of the new motor swaps.

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