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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/5/16 12:47 p.m.

I'd expect you'd be able to run a donor engine with the control system - It's usually easier to downgrade the number of sensors than go the other way. That's assuming there aren't any gotchas like a change in the number of teeth in the reluctor wheel (see LS1 vs LS3).

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/5/16 4:45 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Not really. We've tried and failed that. Needed to turn off a lot of stuff to get it to run without the rest of the vehicle modules.

plance1
plance1 SuperDork
12/6/16 5:36 a.m.

Id like to have the ability to swap out the 4.0 in my sport trac for a newer ford engine...

cwh
cwh PowerDork
12/6/16 8:28 a.m.

Could any of the Ecoboost engines run well with MS?

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/6/16 8:32 a.m.
cwh wrote: Could any of the Ecoboost engines run well with MS?

While I know they are working on it, I'm not aware that MS can run any direct injection motors.

They have considerably different controls requirements than PFI motors.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
12/6/16 12:42 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Not really. We've tried and failed that. Needed to turn off a lot of stuff to get it to run without the rest of the vehicle modules.

In the mid-00s someone in Japan swapped an RX-8 engine into an early RX-7, and in order to be able to use the EEC-V, they also swapped in the dashboard so they could use the RX-8 instrument cluster and HVAC.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/6/16 1:08 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Not really. We've tried and failed that. Needed to turn off a lot of stuff to get it to run without the rest of the vehicle modules.

But is the physical engine any different? The question was whether the controller for the crate engine (which is designed to be run without all the other vehicle modules) can control a production engine. As long as the sensors required by the crate controller are on the production engine, I can't see why not.

Trying to get a production controller to run out of the original vehicle, that's a different matter.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/6/16 1:10 p.m.
Knurled wrote:
alfadriver wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Not really. We've tried and failed that. Needed to turn off a lot of stuff to get it to run without the rest of the vehicle modules.

In the mid-00s someone in Japan swapped an RX-8 engine into an early RX-7, and in order to be able to use the EEC-V, they also swapped in the dashboard so they could use the RX-8 instrument cluster and HVAC.

IIRC the same was done with S2000 swaps for a while. It's the easy way out, kind of like putting aftermarket gauges in a CAN bus car when doing an engine swap because you don't have the chops to get the stock units to work. Turns out, almost nobody has those chops despite all the online posturing.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/6/16 2:00 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote:
alfadriver wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Not really. We've tried and failed that. Needed to turn off a lot of stuff to get it to run without the rest of the vehicle modules.

But is the physical engine any different? The question was whether the controller for the crate engine (which is designed to be run without all the other vehicle modules) can control a production engine. As long as the sensors required by the crate controller are on the production engine, I can't see why not.

Trying to get a production controller to run out of the original vehicle, that's a different matter.

I see what you are saying- yes, you should be able to run a production motor OUT of the car with the crate controller. One big huge BUT, though- for the 3.5- instead of running speed-density as you would in the truck or car, the crate controller runs MAF- so it needs some extra sensors.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
12/6/16 4:32 p.m.

I'll bet the MAF comes with the controller/wiring kit. That's how GM packages it, anyhow. Good to know.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
12/6/16 4:38 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: Turns out, almost nobody has those chops despite all the online posturing.

My boss's dad has one of the apparently extremely few LS-engined Solstices to have everything functioning - cruise, A/C, the works. Bolting the engine in is the easiest part of ANY engine swap.

It took some creative module swapping and reflashing to get it to happen. I am thinking here of the episode of I Love Lucy where they had to speak through three different interpreters because Ricky knew English and Spanish and this other guy knew Spanish and French and this other guy knew French and Italian...

mck1117
mck1117 New Reader
12/7/16 2:55 a.m.
alfadriver wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote:
alfadriver wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: Not really. We've tried and failed that. Needed to turn off a lot of stuff to get it to run without the rest of the vehicle modules.

But is the physical engine any different? The question was whether the controller for the crate engine (which is designed to be run without all the other vehicle modules) can control a production engine. As long as the sensors required by the crate controller are on the production engine, I can't see why not.

Trying to get a production controller to run out of the original vehicle, that's a different matter.

I see what you are saying- yes, you should be able to run a production motor OUT of the car with the crate controller. One big huge BUT, though- for the 3.5- instead of running speed-density as you would in the truck or car, the crate controller runs MAF- so it needs some extra sensors.

I think modern turbo motors mostly run hybrid MAP/MAP wizardry. I know the 2.0 EB in my Focus ST has no fewer than 3 MAP sensors in different places, plus a MAF just after the filter.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/7/16 7:12 a.m.

In reply to mck1117:

Well, I know that all Ford boosted engines run MAP in production. That sensor you see behind the air filter is just an air temp sensor.

And I'm 100% sure how the 3.5l engine runs in production- both in the cars and trucks. Especially the cars.

Actually, I just found out that the 5.0l uses speed/density in the trucks and MAF in the Mustang- so even some of the N/A cars are going MAP based.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/7/16 7:18 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: I'll bet the MAF comes with the controller/wiring kit. That's how GM packages it, anyhow. Good to know.

Just checking on it- it does, along with an air cleaner box, and an pedal...

It also goes from a returnless fuel system to a return type.

I really wish these guys contacted other people before putting this package together.... The I4 team clearly talked to the people who put the engine into production.

On a different side note- while this appears to be the same engine that is used for the race cars- the DP cars for a few years and the GT last year- it's not. Or really importantly- the crank isn't. Most everything else is. So you don't think about starting a prototype racing program on this crate motor...

2002maniac
2002maniac Dork
12/7/16 11:16 a.m.

Control package for $1671

Will a V6 mustang flywheel, clutch, and transmission bolt on to a FWD 3.5? With FWD Ecoboost motors aplenty this has huge hot rod potential!

singleslammer
singleslammer PowerDork
12/7/16 11:21 a.m.

I remember someone (Maybe Alfa) saying that the FWD 3.5L and the RWD 3.5L having different bell housings and some other differences making them non-interchangeable.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/7/16 11:24 a.m.

In reply to 2002maniac:

The link doesn't work...

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/7/16 11:25 a.m.
singleslammer wrote: I remember someone (Maybe Alfa) saying that the FWD 3.5L and the RWD 3.5L having different bell housings and some other differences making them non-interchangeable.

I don't think it was me. I'm not sure if they are the same or not. I do know the FWD 3.5 engine is the basis of the racing engine, so it can go north-south.

singleslammer
singleslammer PowerDork
12/7/16 11:46 a.m.

Ok, I have no idea then. It might just be internet BS.

2002maniac
2002maniac Dork
12/7/16 12:01 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver:

Fixed. I'll blame the forum software

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/7/16 12:31 p.m.

In reply to 2002maniac:

Motor is cheaper there, too

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
12/7/16 1:35 p.m.
alfadriver wrote: Just checking on it- it does, along with an air cleaner box, and an pedal... It also goes from a returnless fuel system to a return type. I really wish these guys contacted other people before putting this package together.... The I4 team clearly talked to the people who put the engine into production.

I wonder if the 3.5 crate people talked to the I4 crate people. I've heard that a common issue with the 2.0 setup is the fuel line buzzing loudly under certain conditions. Wonder if the change to return-style fuel regulation is meant to combat that.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
12/7/16 2:09 p.m.

In reply to Knurled:

That buzzing is due to the high pressure pump- it pushes fuel back each time the pump is stroked. I don't really see that as being fixed as opposed to doubling the lines that will vibrate.

The V6 came before the I4 by a few years, and based on the controller- it's not what we set up for production. Whereas the I4 runs with the production hardware- you can get an engine from an Explorer, and drop it into a hot rod with the controller. Can't do that with the V6, as some of those parts come with the crate motor kit.

fireball123
fireball123 Reader
12/7/16 5:26 p.m.
gearheadmb wrote: Or there is this 3.5 ecoboost for $500 in Ohio

I like how he says "this is a gift from a friend and I would like to get ride of it" now that's true commitment

RossD
RossD UltimaDork
12/11/16 9:29 a.m.
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