The time has come for more power in my ae86. It currently has the supercharged motor from an aw11 making ~11psi from the stock blower. Said blower is dying. Ideally I would like to move from ~150whp to 230-250whp. The choices I have are:
find a way to bolt on an m45 from a c230 merc and hope that plus cams and tune get me the power I crave
or
turbo the thing and make enough power
my main concern (besides going faster) is throttle response. I drive the car by using the gas pedal to rotate so being able to modulate easily is very important. Is there such a thing as a turbo that can respond super fast on a 1.6 while still having top end?
Back in my MR2 SC days back around 2001, the popular move was to go to a Toyota Previa supercharger which is larger.
No personal experience.
The super hot setup was to twin-charge. SC for low rev power then turbo for high rev power
Id think blower fir linear and instant throttle response, as well as area under the curve. Have no personal experience, but that seems to be the main consensus across forums and manufacturers.
In reply to John Welsh :
I actually have one of the previa chargers. Issue with those is they can’t be rebuilt and are still archaic in terms of today.
Twin-charging would be awesome but I feel like it may add too much complication too a autocross car. Could be wrong there though.
The most efficient superchargers are the "Whipple" type of twin-screw compressors. If you're looking at mystery superchargers, they always have a one male and one female rotor. I think the first OEM application was the Mazda Millennia. The Borg-Warner EFR turbo's are the current best tech for autocross, with ball bearings and twin-scroll turbines for quick spool. Google Matthew Glagola SSM Elise for inspiration.
In reply to djsilver :
I have one of the millennia supercharger was well. But too big to fit in this application.
Fitzauto said:
In reply to djsilver :
I have one of the millennia supercharger was well. But too big to fit in this application.
It came from a 2.5 liter motor, but you're wanting to make the same power so you have to move the same amount of air. Go big or go home! ;-) I have one as well. The difference between the Millennia supercharger and the common commercial models is that it's lubricated with engine oil like a typical turbo, rather than using splash lubrication. That means it has an oil supply and drain line (as well as compressor seal leak-off lines that go to vacuum. The fittings are made to mate up with the Millennia manifold with O-rings, but can be drilled/tapped for alternate connections.
If the M45 in the C230 is the same as the one people have used in Miata kits for a long time, there's no way it's going to make 230 at the wheels. They generally top out around the horsepower level you're at now. An MP62 might do it.
For low 200s at the wheels desiring quick spool, it's hard to beat a GT2554 (actual Garrett, not an ebay clone). Yes, the EFRs have much newer tech that enables fast spooling, but AFAIK the smallest one they make is the 6258 and it's a 450 whp turbo. That's a lot of compressor & turbine rotating mass that you'll never use at your stated power goals, and they're a lot more expensive to boot.
In reply to codrus :
That Garrett is on my list to research further. Seems to be the go-to auto-x turbo for lots of guys. Any experience with it?
Research the longevity of the mellenia S lysolm unit, and the labor and cost of a rebuild kit involved in refreshing one. There's a reason mine sits in a tote on a shelf in my basement while the Eaton sits on the work bench awaiting fabrication.
Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to run the lysolm off the Miller cycle, but doing all the fabrication work and tuning for 10-20k mile of fun prior to having to put nearly 2k for a rebuild is a buzz kill and a way to lose interest in a project.
Also the chargers on the Benzs have 2 advantages. First being snoutless for mounting, fitment and belts. Second being a bypass valve. Meaning when getting to high RPMS when the charger will be beyond efficiency, you can bypass it and just have an inefficient intake. It also means that you can do something awesome, like get an ignorantly sized holset on the cheap and go twincharging courtesy of the charger to assist spool. (Note, I wouldn't go holset unless attempting to do so on a challenge budget, and even then 2.3 EB mustangs are starting to pop up in yards and their factory unit is an EFR.)
In reply to captdownshift :
Twincharging was something I considered but engine bay room is not very available and I’m not a fan of thing poking through the hood.
In reply to Fitzauto :
Then I''d opt for a BW EFR from a 2.3EB motor for under $550 from LKQ.
Caution: content may be dangerous
In reply to captdownshift :
That’s just mean posting that right after Black Friday.
A c230 uses a M62 not an M45.
Get an m62 from an early c230 and a m62 from an early Buick Riv. Use the front housing and impellers from the Buick and the back housing from the c230.
In reply to dean1484 :
What year c230 uses the m62? Mines from an 03
The early ones. I don’t know the exact years. They are the ones with the big electromagnetic clutch on them. Because the electromagnetic clutch was so large along with the pully they had to go with an m62. The later ones may be m45s as the have a much smaller pulley so they spin faster meaning an over driven m45 was probably all they needed.
The whole "turbo for power, super for response" thing is grossly oversimplified, unfortunately. It's what every forum "knows", but it's all about implementation. For example, 230-250 rwhp out of an M45 is fiction. The blower simply isn't big enough. In order to cool the intake charge and keep it from blowing its brains out at 180 rwhp, you'd need intercooling of some sort which either means extra complexity and heat management of air/water or the decreased throttle response and idle problems (on a supercharger) of air/air. On the ND Miata, the BBR turbo is the torque monster while the Edelbrock supercharger is the top end screamer.
GT2554 vs M45 on a 1.6? I've done that exact thing, actually. Same engine management (Voodoo Box plus MSD ignition retard), same car, same exhaust. The throttle response of the turbo was better and overall driveability was transformed.
Dyno run PDF
I'm still running that 2554, only now it's on a 1.8 and it has proper engine management. It's not a peak power setup - the turbo struggles above 230 - but it's really perky.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Seems like a 2554 may be the magic bullet in this situation. That dyno chart is very convincing
I don't see how a turbo charged 4ag won't have turbo lag with your HP goals. If you want linear power, I think the supercharger/upgrade would be the way to go.
Mike Kojima wrote an interesting article a few years back called 5 Performance Car Engines That Suck. In the article he goes into detail why a 4AGE doesn't like to make over ~180bhp without cubic dollars. Admittedly he's talking about making that power NA but still, 250whp is a big number.
Boost totally changes that math.
buzzboy said:
Mike Kojima wrote an interesting article a few years back called 5 Performance Car Engines That Suck. In the article he goes into detail why a 4AGE doesn't like to make over ~180bhp without cubic dollars. Admittedly he's talking about making that power NA but still, 250whp is a big number.
I'd like to see that article. TBH, there's a lot of poor information about the 4A-GE that gets spread. EDIT: oh, NA? Well... yeah. They're a 1.6L engine.
Fitzauto:
For HP numbers in the ~230 range, you'll pretty much have to go for a turbo or a bigger, built engine to support the SC14. The GOOD news is tho, that some of the facebook groups have found really cheap, junkyard-parts-shopping-tier methods of making dumb fast A-series hybirds. If you REALLY want to stick to the supercharger and you CAN say the SC14 is in good shape, you can likely hit ~230. The problem is what you're gonna have to do to get there- I can firmly say that you'll have to go with a 7A-FE block with 4A pistons and head to make a 7A-GE, and from there you will have to do aftermarket ECU and cams. You might also have to go E85, and TBH I would just to help keep those intake temps down.
You will likely be happier and be able to do more if you turbo'ed instead. If you are currently running a 4A-GZE a turbo setup can be done on the stock ECU as long as you get a good wastegate- the ECU will take up to ~10lbs of boost before it begins to cut fuel, and if you have aftermarket cams you'll likely hit around 230 with little cost. A gruntbox will also help.
