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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » 6 speed for rwd 4AG....

Jan. 21, 2010 7:17 p.m. oldeskewltoy New Reader

I've been working on a project for a little over 3 years now. Actually, I'm not the one doing the work, I'm the strange dude who "commisioned" the work. The one doing the work is Rob Golden, of Pineapple Racing (you Mazda guys know whom I'm talking about)

The project = get a modern rwd 6 speed transmission to bolt upto Toyota's 4AGE engine. Take one Aisin Industries AZ6 from a Miata, remove the bell housing end, machine a new cap to close up the transmission, AND accept a bell housing from a T50 (Toyota rwd transmission - quite weak)

Ok, why bring this to Grassroots Motorsports? The project is now at the edge... To turn this into a production piece we need 25 interested parties... 25 REALLY interested parties. The AZ6 offers almost double the torque capability, while being able to deliver better mpg.

The gear ratios

S15 6 spd 3.626 2.200 1.541 1.213 1.000 0.767

RX8 6 spd 3.760 2.269 1.645 1.187 1.000 0.843

Miata 6-spd 99- 3.760 2.269 1.645 1.257 1.000 0.843

SXE10 6 sp 3.874 2.175 1.484 1.223 1.000 0.869

TRD(33030-SE100) 3.106 2.175 1.585 1.223 1.000 0.869

NISMO 2.907 1.989 1.537 1.218 1.000 0.862

HKS has some gear sets as well

If you use a 4AGE in a rwd configuration, or know of someone who is using it, or any other Toyota "A" engine, in rwd configuration. This is the project that needs your support.

To learn more, or express an interest, email Rob Golden rob@pineappleracing.com
Jan. 22, 2010 1:37 a.m. CLNSC3 Reader

Cool project, whats the tranny going in? Are you in the Portland area?
Jan. 22, 2010 5:04 a.m. emodspitfire New Reader

Does support translate into "$$$" or "$$$$$$" ??

(Just askin'...Grin)

Rog
Jan. 22, 2010 10:07 a.m. oldeskewltoy New Reader

Yes, Portland area......

the cost for the two parts - adapter and inputshaft, would be $1500.00. Miata 6 speed transmissions go for $600-$1500 depending on condition and "premium"

The overall price should be well under $3500.... a quaife box for a rwd 4AG is about $7000.

So is it $$$, or $$$$$$? I think in the long run, it barely is $$

One of the reasons for this project done the way it was.... the clutch remains all Toyota... bell, disc, plate, pilot and t/o bearings, clutch fork, and hydralics - All Toyota parts no mixing, or special custom bits required

A second reason for this is the T50 is NOT a good match for a 4AGE... at least not without a close ratio gearset. TRD makes 2 such gearsets... $1400-$2100 and you are still stuck with a weak box, albeit somewhat stronger because of better gears, but still installed in a patchwork box - patchwork = originally was a 4 speed, and was converted to 5 in the late 70s(gas crunch)

Besides better ratios, and the box being stronger, the T50 uses 90 weight, the AZ6 30 weight... less drag = better fuel economy
Jan. 22, 2010 3:44 p.m. Apexcarver SuperDork

have you posted to http://www.locostusa.com/forums/ ?

a number of rwd 4age's over there
Jan. 22, 2010 3:53 p.m. John Brown SuperDork

oldeskewltoy wrote: the cost for the two parts - adapter and inputshaft, would be $1500.00. Miata 6 speed transmissions go for $600-$1500 depending on condition and "premium"

A certain salvage yard near Grand Rapids (cough Autosports Unlimited, Grand Rapids, Mi cough) often unloads 5 and 6 speed Miata transmissions as low as $200.00.

YMMV
Jan. 22, 2010 4:52 p.m. Brust Reader

Length from bellhousing to shift lever? Roger that its stock miata- I have my 4age in an MG Midget, and this is a critical dimension- looks like the shifter isn't able to be shortened like the standard miata 5 speed.

I believe there's a guy in OZ who made up a simple adaptor plate to do the same thing. The bellhousing is more elegant, but:
Jan. 22, 2010 6:57 p.m. oldeskewltoy New Reader

The RX8 rear housing is about 5" shorter.... The Altezza rear housing APPEARS to be the shortest
Jan. 22, 2010 8:23 p.m. Brust Reader

Really? I'm on the search for the RX-8 version then. I can't even write trannies here. I know there's going to be some berkleying picture where someone will find a cross dresser in an RX-8.
Jan. 24, 2010 8:10 p.m. ae86andkp61 Reader

You know that I am down for one when they become available! Heck, I might even buy two if that is what it takes to make this modern transmission a reality.

I have expressed my interest to Rob...anyone else who is interested should do the same and let's see if we can get the ball rolling!

I love the 4A-G, I love trackdays, and it is well worth a few bucks to keep the car streetable. A T50 can be made OK for track use with a close ratio kit and a lower final drive...but if you consider that a bone stock Corolla puts you at 4000rpm or more on the highway in top gear, going for the TRD roadrace setup has you at 5500rpm+ on the highway...no thanks! This six-speed gives a streetable first, nice close 2nd through 6th, so you can choose a final drive for BOTH rpm drops which keep it in the powerband on the track, and acceptable highway gears to get to the track, rather than having to choose one or the other. Best of all, the six-speed costs a lot less than purchase, upkeep, and insurance of a tow vehicle and trailer.
Jan. 24, 2010 10:17 p.m. oldeskewltoy New Reader

In reply to Apexcarver: have you posted to http://www.locostusa.com/forums/ ?

a number of rwd 4age's over there

thanks for the heads up.... I think I'll go looking around for similar forums...
Jan. 25, 2010 8:09 a.m. dean1484 Dork

Hummmmm What comes to mind.

First off that is a tad pricey. It really looks like you are trying to make three years worth of $$$$$ on this first run. It just will not happen. You can get a whole miata for that price (or less) and just pull the whole motor and trans and put it in to what ever you are are thinking about putting the 4age in to. Then sell the rest of the miata bringing your final cost down.

2nd Are you intending on collecting the $$$$$ upfront from people? This usually never works. I have seen this go bad many times. Go to a bank and see if they would finance it. You are talking over 60K. Yes you will need a business plan and it would be a very good exercise considering the $$$$$ involved

The reality of the 4AGE as your market target. I think you missed the boat. The 4AGE market and support is shrinking. Have you tried to get pistons from the factory for a 4AGE lately? The last set that I needed had to come from Japan . Things may be better / different now but I was told then that they were stopping factory support of that motor in the US. So it was going to be used parts. (this all but killed our MR2 IT car program) Unforchantly the 4AGE is on the back side of its prominence curve. The market for your piece is shrinking by the day. Ya I know I am the wet blanket here but before you dump a pile of $$$ in to a production run you may want to step back and objectively evaluate this. Yes it is cool and you may have put together something that is useful and had you done it 10 years back I probably would have been beating your door down to get one (for a featherlight mod that I wanted to road course race with a 4AGE) but that was then this is today and the reality is the 4AGE is just not the hot motor it once was.

The miata motor/trans support is fantastic and still growing. Why would I put that kind of $$$$$ in to that piece when I can just get an entire miata motor and trans for that kind of cash. Heck I can get a decent entire miata car for that kind of $$$$ keep the motor and part out the rest. Another way to look at is that your asking price is about what a good LS6 motor and trans goes for.

Best of luck. I have been down the road you are traveling. Very few succeed. I hope you are the exception. It just does not seem that you have done your homework on the market for the product; especially at that price.
Jan. 25, 2010 11:56 a.m. oldeskewltoy New Reader

Hmmmm, LS6? If someone wants that... they aren't going to be interested in a 4AG...

I'm not looking to MAKE anything($$).... I'm looking to offer a solution.

I thank you for your concerns, but I don't think you'd be a client
Jan. 25, 2010 7:26 p.m. dean1484 Dork

oldeskewltoy wrote:

Hmmm, LS6? If someone wants that... they aren't going to be interested in a 4AG...

I'm not looking to MAKE anything($$).... I'm looking to offer a solution.

I thank you for your concerns, but I don't think you'd be a client

The LS6 reference was strictly to put the $$$$$ in context. And as I said, not to many years back what you are offering was exactly what I was looking for. The T50 is a dated piece and the gearing is just wrong. Toyota just never got the trans part of there cars corect in my book. We spent many many hours and $$$$ poring over the MR2 trans trying to fix the 1-2-3 shift problems / ratios and keeping things with in the SCCA IT rules..

I have spent the better part of 15 years working with 4AGE's Who says I am not a potential customer? What I am is an entrepreneur that has been there done that and I am as nicely as possible trying to pass on what I see.

Don't shoot the messenger. You are all hyped up on your success of making it work technically. This does not make it work in the retail market. (again I have been there)

I have been working on an automotive related item that had I charged the public for all the time I have invested in it over the last 7 years they would have to sell for 2-3K each. This is where market research comes in. They told me that the real selling price, for what I have developed, is between $100 - $200. Sucks for me but it is reality and with this I have made a business plan and I have investors.

You are obviously very talented and have put together a quality product that has a market share. I would call Summit or one of the other big parts warehouses and see what they would purchase it for and in turn sell it for. Hell they may advance you for 100 or even 1000 pieces. You never know till you ask.

For the $$$ you are dealing with here get a market research study done. This can be had for relatively short $$$$ and can make or save you a tone of time and $$$$$. You may have the next thing to take the locust market by storm!!

Best of luck!!!!
Jan. 25, 2010 10:08 p.m. oldeskewltoy New Reader

Someone far brighter than either you.... or I once said.......

You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."

--R. Buckminster Fuller

I've tried to follow my Fullers advice, while you.... are only good for pissin on others hard work.

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