oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy UltraDork
1/21/10 7:17 p.m.

I've been working on a project for a little over 3 years now. Actually, I'm not the one doing the work, I'm the strange dude who "commisioned" the work. The one doing the work is Rob Golden, of Pineapple Racing (you Mazda guys know whom I'm talking about)

The project = get a modern rwd 6 speed transmission to bolt upto Toyota's 4AGE engine. Take one Aisin Industries AZ6 from a Miata, remove the bell housing end, machine a new cap to close up the transmission, AND accept a bell housing from a T50 (Toyota rwd transmission - quite weak)

Ok, why bring this to Grassroots Motorsports? The project is now at the edge... To turn this into a production piece we need 25 interested parties... 25 REALLY interested parties. The AZ6 offers almost double the torque capability, while being able to deliver better mpg.

The gear ratios

S15 6 spd 3.626 2.200 1.541 1.213 1.000 0.767

RX8 6 spd 3.760 2.269 1.645 1.187 1.000 0.843

Miata 6-spd 99- 3.760 2.269 1.645 1.257 1.000 0.843

SXE10 6 sp 3.874 2.175 1.484 1.223 1.000 0.869

TRD(33030-SE100) 3.106 2.175 1.585 1.223 1.000 0.869

NISMO 2.907 1.989 1.537 1.218 1.000 0.862

HKS has some gear sets as well

If you use a 4AGE in a rwd configuration, or know of someone who is using it, or any other Toyota "A" engine, in rwd configuration. This is the project that needs your support.

To learn more, or express an interest, email Rob Golden rob@pineappleracing.com

CLNSC3
CLNSC3 Reader
1/22/10 1:37 a.m.

Cool project, whats the tranny going in? Are you in the Portland area?

emodspitfire
emodspitfire Reader
1/22/10 5:04 a.m.

Does support translate into "$$$" or "$$$$$$" ??

(Just askin'...Grin)

Rog

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy UltraDork
1/22/10 10:07 a.m.

Yes, Portland area......

the cost for the two parts - adapter and inputshaft, would be $1500.00. Miata 6 speed transmissions go for $600-$1500 depending on condition and "premium"

The overall price should be well under $3500.... a quaife box for a rwd 4AG is about $7000.

So is it $$$, or $$$$$$? I think in the long run, it barely is $$

One of the reasons for this project done the way it was.... the clutch remains all Toyota... bell, disc, plate, pilot and t/o bearings, clutch fork, and hydralics - All Toyota parts no mixing, or special custom bits required

A second reason for this is the T50 is NOT a good match for a 4AGE... at least not without a close ratio gearset. TRD makes 2 such gearsets... $1400-$2100 and you are still stuck with a weak box, albeit somewhat stronger because of better gears, but still installed in a patchwork box - patchwork = originally was a 4 speed, and was converted to 5 in the late 70s(gas crunch)

Besides better ratios, and the box being stronger, the T50 uses 90 weight, the AZ6 30 weight... less drag = better fuel economy

Apexcarver
Apexcarver SuperDork
1/22/10 3:44 p.m.

have you posted to http://www.locostusa.com/forums/ ?

a number of rwd 4age's over there

John Brown
John Brown SuperDork
1/22/10 3:53 p.m.
oldeskewltoy wrote: the cost for the two parts - adapter and inputshaft, would be $1500.00. Miata 6 speed transmissions go for $600-$1500 depending on condition and "premium"

A certain salvage yard near Grand Rapids (cough Autosports Unlimited, Grand Rapids, Mi cough) often unloads 5 and 6 speed Miata transmissions as low as $200.00.

YMMV

Brust
Brust Reader
1/22/10 4:52 p.m.

Length from bellhousing to shift lever? Roger that its stock miata- I have my 4age in an MG Midget, and this is a critical dimension- looks like the shifter isn't able to be shortened like the standard miata 5 speed.

I believe there's a guy in OZ who made up a simple adaptor plate to do the same thing. The bellhousing is more elegant, but:

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy New Reader
1/22/10 6:57 p.m.

The RX8 rear housing is about 5" shorter.... The Altezza rear housing APPEARS to be the shortest

Brust
Brust Reader
1/22/10 8:23 p.m.

Really? I'm on the search for the RX-8 version then. I can't even write trannies here. I know there's going to be some berkleying picture where someone will find a cross dresser in an RX-8.

ae86andkp61
ae86andkp61 Reader
1/24/10 8:10 p.m.

You know that I am down for one when they become available! Heck, I might even buy two if that is what it takes to make this modern transmission a reality.

I have expressed my interest to Rob...anyone else who is interested should do the same and let's see if we can get the ball rolling!

I love the 4A-G, I love trackdays, and it is well worth a few bucks to keep the car streetable. A T50 can be made OK for track use with a close ratio kit and a lower final drive...but if you consider that a bone stock Corolla puts you at 4000rpm or more on the highway in top gear, going for the TRD roadrace setup has you at 5500rpm+ on the highway...no thanks! This six-speed gives a streetable first, nice close 2nd through 6th, so you can choose a final drive for BOTH rpm drops which keep it in the powerband on the track, and acceptable highway gears to get to the track, rather than having to choose one or the other. Best of all, the six-speed costs a lot less than purchase, upkeep, and insurance of a tow vehicle and trailer.

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy New Reader
1/24/10 10:17 p.m.

In reply to Apexcarver: have you posted to http://www.locostusa.com/forums/ ?

a number of rwd 4age's over there

thanks for the heads up.... I think I'll go looking around for similar forums...

dean1484
dean1484 Dork
1/25/10 8:09 a.m.

Hummmmm What comes to mind.

First off that is a tad pricey. It really looks like you are trying to make three years worth of $$$$$ on this first run. It just will not happen. You can get a whole miata for that price (or less) and just pull the whole motor and trans and put it in to what ever you are are thinking about putting the 4age in to. Then sell the rest of the miata bringing your final cost down.

2nd Are you intending on collecting the $$$$$ upfront from people? This usually never works. I have seen this go bad many times. Go to a bank and see if they would finance it. You are talking over 60K. Yes you will need a business plan and it would be a very good exercise considering the $$$$$ involved

The reality of the 4AGE as your market target. I think you missed the boat. The 4AGE market and support is shrinking. Have you tried to get pistons from the factory for a 4AGE lately? The last set that I needed had to come from Japan . Things may be better / different now but I was told then that they were stopping factory support of that motor in the US. So it was going to be used parts. (this all but killed our MR2 IT car program) Unforchantly the 4AGE is on the back side of its prominence curve. The market for your piece is shrinking by the day. Ya I know I am the wet blanket here but before you dump a pile of $$$ in to a production run you may want to step back and objectively evaluate this. Yes it is cool and you may have put together something that is useful and had you done it 10 years back I probably would have been beating your door down to get one (for a featherlight mod that I wanted to road course race with a 4AGE) but that was then this is today and the reality is the 4AGE is just not the hot motor it once was.

The miata motor/trans support is fantastic and still growing. Why would I put that kind of $$$$$ in to that piece when I can just get an entire miata motor and trans for that kind of cash. Heck I can get a decent entire miata car for that kind of $$$$ keep the motor and part out the rest. Another way to look at is that your asking price is about what a good LS6 motor and trans goes for.

Best of luck. I have been down the road you are traveling. Very few succeed. I hope you are the exception. It just does not seem that you have done your homework on the market for the product; especially at that price.

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy New Reader
1/25/10 11:56 a.m.

Hmmmm, LS6? If someone wants that... they aren't going to be interested in a 4AG...

I'm not looking to MAKE anything($$).... I'm looking to offer a solution.

I thank you for your concerns, but I don't think you'd be a client

dean1484
dean1484 Dork
1/25/10 7:26 p.m.
oldeskewltoy wrote: Hmmm, LS6? If someone wants that... they aren't going to be interested in a 4AG... I'm not looking to MAKE anything($$).... I'm looking to offer a solution. I thank you for your concerns, but I don't think you'd be a client

The LS6 reference was strictly to put the $$$$$ in context. And as I said, not to many years back what you are offering was exactly what I was looking for. The T50 is a dated piece and the gearing is just wrong. Toyota just never got the trans part of there cars corect in my book. We spent many many hours and $$$$ poring over the MR2 trans trying to fix the 1-2-3 shift problems / ratios and keeping things with in the SCCA IT rules..

I have spent the better part of 15 years working with 4AGE's Who says I am not a potential customer? What I am is an entrepreneur that has been there done that and I am as nicely as possible trying to pass on what I see.

Don't shoot the messenger. You are all hyped up on your success of making it work technically. This does not make it work in the retail market. (again I have been there)

I have been working on an automotive related item that had I charged the public for all the time I have invested in it over the last 7 years they would have to sell for 2-3K each. This is where market research comes in. They told me that the real selling price, for what I have developed, is between $100 - $200. Sucks for me but it is reality and with this I have made a business plan and I have investors.

You are obviously very talented and have put together a quality product that has a market share. I would call Summit or one of the other big parts warehouses and see what they would purchase it for and in turn sell it for. Hell they may advance you for 100 or even 1000 pieces. You never know till you ask.

For the $$$ you are dealing with here get a market research study done. This can be had for relatively short $$$$ and can make or save you a tone of time and $$$$$. You may have the next thing to take the locust market by storm!!

Best of luck!!!!

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy UltraDork
1/25/10 10:08 p.m.

Someone far brighter than either you.... or I once said.......

You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."

--R. Buckminster Fuller

I've tried to follow my Fullers advice, while you.... are only good for pissin on others hard work.

Lomaxmotorsports
Lomaxmotorsports Reader
9/17/15 6:41 p.m.

Was there ever any progress on this?

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy UltraDork
9/17/15 8:25 p.m.

In reply to Lomaxmotorsports:

kinda.... A few years back LEEN introduced a conversion for the Toyota version of the 6 speed, the J160.

I need to come up with about $30K to buy LEEN, and build the next 10.......

Trackmouse
Trackmouse HalfDork
9/17/15 11:09 p.m.

Why a six speed? A w58 swap is cheap as crap, plentiful, tons of ratios, etc. all that money for one extra gear? I don't believe I've ever seen a 4age make enough power to propel an ae86 to "phenomenal speeds" requiring another gear. And if it's for "more rpm choices per corner" it's called proper gears for the proper track setup. Regear.

ae86andkp61
ae86andkp61 HalfDork
9/17/15 11:29 p.m.
Trackmouse wrote: Why a six speed? A w58 swap is cheap as crap, plentiful, tons of ratios, etc. all that money for one extra gear? I don't believe I've ever seen a 4age make enough power to propel an ae86 to "phenomenal speeds" requiring another gear. And if it's for "more rpm choices per corner" it's called proper gears for the proper track setup. Regear.

It isn't for top end; the car is going to reach top speed in fifth. I bought one because I drive my car on the track and the highway, and I want quiet efficient highway cruising, and gears close enough to keep the engine in the sweet spot on track. I love the AE86, but get awfully tired of suffering both a fairly big 1-2 gap plus occasionally wanting 3-4 closer AND 4500+rpm in fifth on the highway. Stock final drive for an AE86 is 4.3, and the track junkies run between 4.7 and 5.3 final drives to get the best from the T50. The LEEN isn't cheap, but purchase/gas/maintenance/parking for a tow rig and trailer isn't cheap either, and I am a drive-to-the-track kind of guy. YMMV, but IMO neither a T50 nor a W58 does as well all-around as the J160.

kb58
kb58 Dork
9/18/15 8:29 a.m.
oldeskewltoy wrote: ...while you.... are only good for pissin on others hard work.

Nothing dean1484 said prevented you from pushing forward, so how did it turn out? Is he still the bad guy, or was he proven correct? Constructive criticism from actual businessmen is invaluable to forming a successful business plan.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy PowerDork
9/18/15 10:32 a.m.

Interestingly enough, the T50 is geared perfectly for my mildly built 3TC in my 1980 Corolla. Gearing is practically perfect for a car that only revs to 6k rpm

This has my interest, except for all the cost/effort, I'd rather just go ahead with my ecoboost swap which has adapters readily available to bolt to Miata trans already. Its a win-win

DeadSkunk
DeadSkunk UltraDork
9/18/15 11:45 a.m.

Vaguely related question........is the transmission in my 1973 SR5 Corolla a T50? And,do any modern Toyota engines bolt up to it without adapters?

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess MegaDork
9/18/15 12:21 p.m.

Yes, your '73 SR5 'rolla should be a T50 or T40. It has a T motor, right? That was the transmission behind it. I don't think anything but a T block will bolt up to that bell housing. I think you could put a A block bell housing on it and then use an A motor.

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy UltraDork
9/19/15 12:40 p.m.
Trackmouse wrote: Why a six speed? A w58 swap is cheap as crap, plentiful, tons of ratios, etc. all that money for one extra gear? I don't believe I've ever seen a 4age make enough power to propel an ae86 to "phenomenal speeds" requiring another gear. And if it's for "more rpm choices per corner" it's called proper gears for the proper track setup. Regear.

I'm guessing you haven't seen, or heard Billy Edmond's 230+hp Hasselgren powered AE86......

that ain't no W58........

https://youtu.be/guNiPlbOojM - Note @ about 1:20, the "poor" S4 Audi gets left behind.....

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