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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Aircooled VW - performance suggestions?

Dec. 25, 2010 8:18 p.m. SlickDizzy SuperDork

Found a neat '79 Beetle convertible somewhat locally for sub-BABE price. Going down there Tuesday with the truck and trailer to pick it up. One thing that seems to be awesome about aircooled VW's is that the aftermarket is so huge, performance parts are a dime a dozen. I feel like I could get the thing 100% BABE ready for really cheap. I've never dealt with one of these here thangs before - where would I find the biggest gains in power/handling/efficiency?

I also have a flat six from a Subaru XT6 laying around, but that may be a bit overkill...I'd also have to plumb a cooling system and wire the damn thing...
Dec. 25, 2010 8:39 p.m. JThw8 SuperDork

'vert, sub BABE price? Get yerself some filing cabinets (I know you know that reference from BABE) Its gotta be rusty.

The good news, as you noted, its there's alot of aftermarket. The bad news is, there's alot of aftermarket. You have to weed through alot of cut rate low quality crap to find the good stuff.

Flat 6 subie is a tough fit in the stock body, but a flat 4 goes easy and bang for the buck is the cheapest and most reliable way to make big power. It seems a bit expensive at first, $500 for the adapter, $300-$500 for a good donor car, cooling system, but to make a matching 140+ hp out of a VW aircooled will cost ALOT more.

What are your goals, that will help us lead you down the best path. There are sooo many options on what you can do that its hard to give you exact notes without some idea of what you want to do.

If you can find the parts in a JY or for sale cheap Porsche 944 brakes are your friend and all the upgrade you will need for the braking system.
Dec. 25, 2010 8:42 p.m. RioRacer Dork

I was a big fan of my progresive weber that i had on mine. I did a lot of other little thing to get the car to run the way i wanted it to.
Dec. 25, 2010 8:55 p.m. SlickDizzy SuperDork

According to the seller, it was parked when the floorboard fell out a year ago. Ran great at that point. Rest of body is clean, frame is solid. Top looks good, one 6" tear above passenger seat. I want to take it on BABE 2011, but the girlfriend will also be driving, and while she appreciates my hobby, I am not trying to put her through what you (Jim) & Chris did with your Beetle! I'd like to make it handle as well as possible without spending a buttload and at least make it able to get by on a modern freeway. (Remember, I drove a 54HP Renault in 2007, my standards are somewhat low.)

FWIW, I have access to many, many Subaru motors through local circles (the garage I rent shares a building with a rally team, and I split rent with a few of my Subaru buddies) so an EA82 or EJ22 swap is not totally out of the question. I'd rather fiddle with the aircooled lump simply because I have never worked on such a thing before.

These are the pics the seller texted me. I figure I could part it for way more than $500 even if it's a heap.
Dec. 25, 2010 9:12 p.m. JThw8 SuperDork

If you are just trying to make BABE that's one thing. Button up the floors, it will be good.

But looking at that damage I'd be shocked if the heater channels are any good. They are a PITA to replace and are somewhat structural although you should survive BABE if they aren't completely gone.

Differences between our car and this one which may or may not be in your favor. It should have an FI motor. If its un-messed with its about as good as you can get for a stock motor and adequate for power. I believe it will have front disk brakes and it will be a strut based front end. The strut cars are known for a front end shimmy above 50 mph which can be just annoying or downright scary depending on the severity of the particular car. Head over to www.superbeetlesonly.com to learn more.

If it is still and FI car dont let everyone talk you into swapping it over to carbs. The FI system is bone simple and very reliable. Very easy to work on and a good basis for megasquirt if you are so inclined.

Buy the book, keep it with you. It will get you out of any emergency. http://www.amazon.com/Keep-Volkswagen-Alive-Step-Step/dp/1566913101/ref=sr_1_1?ie=...

for BABE keep a copy of the A.I.R.S. list, these folks will save your bacon if you get in trouble. (http://www.type2.com/rescue/)

Sadly I wont be along on BABE this year so I can only offer you moral support and pre-event preparation.
Dec. 25, 2010 9:15 p.m. SlickDizzy SuperDork

More pics:
Dec. 25, 2010 11:19 p.m. wearymicrobe Reader

that last picture is not rust that is pure cancer
Dec. 26, 2010 7:42 a.m. JThw8 SuperDork

wearymicrobe wrote:

that last picture is not rust that is pure cancer

lol....how did I know before clicking on your profile that you were a west coaster.

Out here in the northeast that's what we call "minor rust" ;)
Dec. 26, 2010 8:17 a.m. Mikey52_1 HalfDork

Given the damage on the floor, and probable damage on the heater channels, it may be worth your trouble if you've lots of time. The frame work is gonna be 'challenging'...I'd be surprised if you find ANY bolts you can get out without breaking them. But Kroil is your friend...
Dec. 26, 2010 8:50 a.m. Streetwiseguy HalfDork

JThw8 wrote:

wearymicrobe wrote:

that last picture is not rust that is pure cancer

lol....how did I know before clicking on your profile that you were a west coaster.

Out here in the northeast that's what we call "minor rust" ;)

Western Canada too.
Dec. 26, 2010 9:58 a.m. Junkyard_Dog Dork

RioRacer wrote:

I was a big fan of my progresive weber that i had on mine. I did a lot of other little thing to get the car to run the way i wanted it to.

Weber progressive conversions are for those who don't understand the worlds simplest fuel injection system. The other little things are because that carb was never meant to be on that engine. Run, do not walk, from any vehicle so equipped.
Dec. 26, 2010 2:32 p.m. mad_machine SuperDork

I wish I could find my pictures.

I had a 74 Superbeetle with a Type 4 engine transplanted in from a 75 914. 2.0 with a VERY lumpy cam, headers, and dellorto carbs.. made for spinning wheels in three out of 4 of the gears.

Unfortunately this was long before the 911 fan style conversion kits they have for the Type4 now.. so I had hacked away all the sheet metal beneath the rear bumper to fit the 914's cooling system.

And I had no heat what-so-ever. I imagine I could have used Bus heaterboxes.. but I was 18
Dec. 26, 2010 2:46 p.m. stuart in mn SuperDork

JThw8 wrote: lol....how did I know before clicking on your profile that you were a west coaster.

Out here in the northeast that's what we call "minor rust" ;)

I'm in Minnesota, and used to own a Beetle, so I know rust...considering the visible holes in that car, it's probably pretty bad.
Dec. 26, 2010 5:03 p.m. JThw8 SuperDork

stuart in mn wrote:

JThw8 wrote: lol....how did I know before clicking on your profile that you were a west coaster.

Out here in the northeast that's what we call "minor rust" ;)

I'm in Minnesota, and used to own a Beetle, so I know rust...considering the visible holes in that car, it's probably pretty bad.

Yeah, but he's talking BABE rally here. The file cabinet joke is a direct reference to the preferred method of floor patching on BABE vehicles, used file cabinets.

Its still more salvageable than some cars I've seen folks start with, but I doubt anyone would waste the needed effort on a "fatchick" bug.
Dec. 26, 2010 5:43 p.m. SlickDizzy SuperDork
JThw8 wrote:

...but I doubt anyone would waste the needed effort on a "fatchick" bug.

Aww, are the Super 'verts really a fat chick car? My girlfriend would take offense to that!

I know this thing'll take a fair bit of effort - it will certainly help that I'm not angling to have a show car. The price point is also just too good to pass up (less than $300, don't know how much less yet) and the fact that I have a 2300 sq ft shop space now to tear it apart in makes things MUCH easier.

I guess my questions at this point would be these:
1. Would I see any power gains from an exhaust system?
2. I f*cking hate breaker points. A lot of people seem to recommend an electronic ignition conversion. Suggestions for this?
3. With 944 brakes, can you run 944 wheels? I am thinking of a "Beetle Carrera RS" BABE theme.
4. Anyone make a decent roll bar for these?
Dec. 26, 2010 6:02 p.m. JThw8 SuperDork
SlickDizzy wrote:

JThw8 wrote:

...but I doubt anyone would waste the needed effort on a "fatchick" bug.

Aww, are the Super 'verts really a fat chick car? My girlfriend would take offense to that!

I know this thing'll take a fair bit of effort - it will certainly help that I'm not angling to have a show car. The price point is also just too good to pass up (less than $300, don't know how much less yet) and the fact that I have a 2300 sq ft shop space now to tear it apart in makes things MUCH easier.

I guess my questions at this point would be these:
1. Would I see any power gains from an exhaust system?
2. I f*cking hate breaker points. A lot of people seem to recommend an electronic ignition conversion. Suggestions for this?
3. With 944 brakes, can you run 944 wheels? I am thinking of a "Beetle Carrera RS" BABE theme.
4. Anyone make a decent roll bar for these?
Dont sweat it, all post 1970 VWs are known as "fatchicks" in the community. Nothing wrong with them, just less valued overall.

Exhaust, dont mess with it. Ignition, Pertronix is good. Yes with the brake conversion you can do the wheels. I have a set of Fuchs and a set of phone dials...what's your preference? (the phone dials look good on the later beetles)

Lots of people make roll cages, most of them are cheap crap. From what I see you really dont have any structure to really support it if it was needed to perform its duty anyway.
Dec. 26, 2010 6:26 p.m. kb58 Reader

As one who's never been involved in the bug scene, I just don't see the draw of that engine. Can it be made powerful? Yes. Can it be made fast? Yes. Can it be made fast and reliable... not that I've ever seen. Watching them drag-race is a good data point - they're always breaking. We had one bug that used to autocross - had a killer engine that went "pop."

For what the engine is (dead stock) it's fine, but try squeezing more out of it and its return on investment seems like a really bad deal. As was suggested, to make it fast and reliable, the Subi engine starts looking pretty cheap.
Dec. 26, 2010 6:40 p.m. JThw8 SuperDork

kb58 wrote:

As one who's never been involved in the bug scene, I just don't see the draw of that engine. Can it be made powerful? Yes. Can it be made fast? Yes. Can it be made fast and reliable... not that I've ever seen. Watching them drag-race is a good data point - they're always breaking. We had one bug that used to autocross - had a killer engine that went "pop."

For what the engine is (dead stock) it's fine, but try squeezing more out of it and its return on investment seems like a really bad deal. As was suggested, to make it fast and reliable, the Subi engine starts looking pretty cheap.

I agree. If you want power and reliability its there. Just call Jake Raby and write a blank check. But if you have a budget then yes, dollar for dollar you'll get more HP and reliability from the Subie hands down. Still, its a nice simplistic motor, for relatively stock applications its fun. There are reasonable amounts of power to be had reliably. I used to autocross formula vees with 1600s built up to about 100 hp (more than adequate for sub 1000 lb cars) and never had to crack one open. But there are limits and costs. After doing the subie swap for the Wartburg I've become sold on the option. 2.2 subies are as ubiquitous as aircooled VW motors used to be and take quite a thrashing. We blew a cooling hose during 24 hours of lemons and cooked the motor pretty good, tossed 2 new headgaskets at it and finished the 2nd day of Lemons and ran the motor untouched through all of the GRM challenge without a stumble.
Dec. 26, 2010 7:02 p.m. M030 HalfDork

JThw8 wrote:

If you can find the parts in a JY or for sale cheap Porsche 944 brakes are your friend and all the upgrade you will need for the braking system.

I have done this conversion on my own '72 Super Beetle. It is not nearly as easy as it seems. The rear brakes go right on if you use the 944 trailing arms, but the fronts require very expensive aftermarket spindles.
Dec. 26, 2010 7:11 p.m. JThw8 SuperDork

M030 wrote:

JThw8 wrote:

If you can find the parts in a JY or for sale cheap Porsche 944 brakes are your friend and all the upgrade you will need for the braking system.

I have done this conversion on my own '72 Super Beetle. It is not nearly as easy as it seems. The rear brakes go right on if you use the 944 trailing arms, but the fronts require very expensive aftermarket spindles.

The rears go right on, 944 arms not needed. If you want to keep the parking brake functional you need a little adapter part to adapt the VW cable to the p-car parking brake, I bought mine but now that I've seen them I could make them with about an hours work with a drill and an angle grinder and some plate steel.

The fronts can either have the hub modified to fit the VW spindle (about $160 for the pair) the aforementioned aftermarket spindles or since he has a later Super he can just bolt the entire strut and spindle from the 944 to the VW. 73 and earlier used a different strut, thus the issues you had, but 74 and later are danged near identical to the 924/944 and can be bolted up or adapted with very little effort.

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