Alcohol and driving

Short answer, My new Ford F150 4X4 V8 (Flexfuel)costs me 10.6 cents per mile with 87 octane pump fuel while my cost per mile using E85 is 8.6 cents per mile.. YEP! it's cheaper in spite of lower fuel mileage.. I paid $2.32 for a gallon of 87 octane while E85 sold for only $1.79 a gallon. That's an annual saving of $272.00* (what you were thinking I was talking about drinking alcohol and driving?

But WOW!!! is it ever fun to floor it with E85!!

It feels like I gain 100 extra horses with the giggle juice of E85 (yes I know I'm probably exaggerating) Flooring it, the rear end squats way down, the front end looks like I'm about to take off and there is usually some serious tire squealing going on..

*boring stuff, mileage is calculated based on my daily commuting to and from work.. 16 miles each way done twice a day.. 1/3 of the trip is 25/30 MPH stuff, one third is 40 MPH stuff and 1/3 is freeway, morning and evening is done during rush hour while the midday trip isn't. 64 miles per day. About 16,000 miles per year..

Wouldn't hurt to test it out on 93 as well for an additional data point. It'll probably burn through the 93 a little slower than 87 (and a lot slower than E85). That way you have enough data to look at the relative prices of each fuel and know which one is really cheapest to put in the truck on any given day.

Another fuel mileage thread?

That makes me want to get drunk and go to my podium driving job at the auction.

In reply to frenchyd:

Consider yourself lucky.

I stand in support of all threads where people gather data and do math to test their assumptions!

Here in OK, it's usually about 30% cheaper than 91 (we don't get 93 in this state) and get 30% less mileage.

But the 15-20whp the BRZ picks up is noticeable.

I haven't flashed back to E85 this summer yet. With my short commute and working from home at least 1 day per week, I'm enjoying only filling up the tank once about every 3 weeks.

Almost impossible to find E-85 around here.

I can get 91nonE though.

I want to feed the MS3 corn juice so badly but the nearest station is 25 miles away. It's a bit hard to justify 1/6 of the cars range for fill ups.

On the plus side I have access to 93 again so that makes me happy.

Vigo wrote: I stand in support of all threads where people gather data and do math to test their assumptions!

Yup. We love the maths.

Vigo wrote: I stand in support of all threads where people gather data and do math to test their assumptions!

I thought about starting a thread about this guy.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/instituteforjustice/2017/04/28/do-you-need-a-license-in-engineering-to-criticize-red-light-cameras-oregon-says-yes/#1146c0da32ee

But I thought it would be hard for me not to make a political point that would have been controversial. Now seems a good time to post it.

rslifkin wrote: Wouldn't hurt to test it out on 93 as well for an additional data point. It'll probably burn through the 93 a little slower than 87 (and a lot slower than E85). That way you have enough data to look at the relative prices of each fuel and know which one is really cheapest to put in the truck on any given day.

Well actually there are several tests I could do.. I can buy 91 octane alcohol free. Although not really legal for street driven vehicles but legal in boats, offroad vehicles, lawn equipment, and? Then compare that with 10% ethanol laced 93 octane.. (ethanol tends to raise octane of the fuel in question)I can also buy 15% alcohol in 88 octane form. I even know a friendly Aviation fuel supplier.. What would 115/145 do (if it's still available?)

Testing brands won't mean anything since there are two refineries in town that supply to all brands used. I could test various oil refineries.. Fuel from the Koch bros. refinery as well as fuel from the Ashland refinery.. Except for the political issue that would be raised given the massive amount of money the Koch bros. give to conservative political causes might cause the validity of testing to be called into question based on political bias of some.

With regard "Any given day" I found out early on that weather with temps under 35 affected mileage by as much as 2 MPG so I delayed testing until the spring took hold solidly and temps stabilized.. I also held off until I completed my marathon San Diego trip.. I felt the additional 4200 miles would help break in the truck.. I say marathon because it took me 31 hours to drive out there (drove through two winter storms in the mountains and spent 1&1/2 hours sleeping at a roadside rest. The return trip took 50 hours since I was pulling a trailer with my freshly bought Jag XJ-S V12 and was delayed for 5 hours due to an accident a few cars in front of me in front of me that trapped me on the freeway. and 5 hours of required sleep at a roadside rest.

The0retical wrote: I want to feed the MS3 corn juice so badly but the nearest station is 25 miles away. It's a bit hard to justify 1/6 of the cars range for fill ups. On the plus side I have access to 93 again so that makes me happy.

Hopefully you have Flex fuel capability because without it you can do some serious damage to your vehicle.. You can buy E85 on line, It's a lot more expensive and then there is shipping, but to put some in your tank for an autocross event or a track day might make it worth while..

z31maniac wrote: Here in OK, it's usually about 30% cheaper than 91 (we don't get 93 in this state) and get 30% less mileage. But the 15-20whp the BRZ picks up is noticeable. I haven't flashed back to E85 this summer yet. With my short commute and working from home at least 1 day per week, I'm enjoying only filling up the tank once about every 3 weeks.

That was my thoughts exactly until I tested it myself.. My Ford owners manual stated I would get 100 miles less per tank, 400 miles verses 500 miles with 87 octane
However real world mileage is around 21.9 with 87 octane and 20.5 with E85
I suspect the reason for that is the E85 I get is 30% alcohol compared to the potential to have as much as 85% alcohol. Since all gasoline legal in the state is at least 10%. That's only a 20% increase

Huckleberry wrote: Another fuel mileage thread? That makes me want to get drunk and go to my podium driving job at the auction.

What is wrong with not being wasteful?

The way I see it, if I can get 25mpg instead of 20, that means I can cut the amount of fuel I use by 20%. Or enjoy my car 25% longer for the same amount of money.

Skip the aviation fuel testing. It's all leaded, so it'll trash the cats and O2 sensors. Even 100LL (low lead) has more lead in it than automotive gas used to.

In the San Diego area E85 is $2.49 and 87 octane is $2.95, so it doesn't make sense to use due to E85's 30% worse mpg. I had a sadly comical conversation with someone filling up their SUV with E85:

Me: Why E85?

Them: I get great range

Me: What about mileage?

Them: I don't know, but I get great range

Me: How does range compare to gas?

Them: I don't know, but it's great...

Ugh.

Around here it makes zero economic sense other than poking the Middle East in the eye*, and having a turbo car that actively takes advantage of the octane increase. I use it in my turbo Midlana, where the E85 content can be taken advantage of, but even there it kicks range in the nuts, going from `30mpg to 20 or so. Great stuff when used appropriately but most people are just too boneheaded to understand the fine points.

*there's still a lot of debate about whether E85 is actually net-positive, or if it takes more energy to produce than it provides.

kb58 wrote: In the San Diego area E85 is $2.49 and 87 octane is $2.95, so it doesn't make sense to use due to E85's 30% worse mpg. I had a sadly comical conversation with someone filling up their SUV with E85: Me: Why E85? Them: I get great range Me: What about mileage? Them: I don't know, but I get great range Me: How does range compare to gas? Them: I don't know, but it's great... Ugh. Around here it makes zero economic sense other than poking the Middle East in the eye*, and having a turbo car that actively takes advantage of the octane increase. I use it in my turbo Midlana, where the E85 content can be taken advantage of, but even there it kicks range in the nuts, going from `30mpg to 20 or so. Great stuff when used appropriately but most people are just too boneheaded to understand the fine points. *there's still a lot of debate about whether E85 is actually net-positive, or if it takes more energy to produce than it provides.

Where in San Diego did you find gas under $3.00 and something? A few weeks ago I was paying at least $3.20-3.30 a gallon when I was out there.. You did read where I get 20.5 MPG with E85 and slightly more than 1 MPG better with 87 octane didn't you? That's not 30% less.. In fact it worked out that E85 costs me 8.9 cents per mile compared to 10.6 cents per mile with 87 octane.. E85 was less expensive per mile!! I can understand you getting worse fuel mileage because the added power of E85 makes me want to stick my foot into the throttle a lot just for the pure joy of it..

As to the comments about does it take more energy to produce than it provides..? Like most things it's complex.. Worst case it might be true under certain extreme conditions.. The only case I can imagine is where ethanol is made in the Midwest and trucked to someplace not served by pipelines..

Most of the time though it is a real gain.. Here in the Midwest most ethanol plants are surrounded by corn fields.. accordingly transportation costs are extremely modest.. Once converted into ethanol every plant I know about pipelines it to the refinery. Also a surprising percentage of farmers use recycled cooking oil in their tractors.. further reducing oil consumption... In addition the byproduct of making ethanol is sold to farmers for a feed product ingredient.

Knurled wrote:

Huckleberry wrote: Another fuel mileage thread? That makes me want to get drunk and go to my podium driving job at the auction.

What is wrong with not being wasteful? The way I see it, if I can get 25mpg instead of 20, that means I can cut the amount of fuel I use by 20%. Or enjoy my car 25% longer for the same amount of money.

Ethanol has added oxygen in it to reduce pollution.. plus if you read what I found out in actual testing I didn't reduce my mileage by 20% not even 10%!

I too believed I would get much worse mileage but real world it was only a little more than 1 MPG less!!!

In theory, E85 should get somewhere around 20 - 30% worse MPG. In reality, it varies depending on the engine it's being fed to and how well optimized it is for E85 vs stuff with lower octane.

frenchyd wrote: I suspect the reason for that is the E85 I get is 30% alcohol compared to the potential to have as much as 85% alcohol. Since all gasoline legal in the state is at least 10%. That's only a 20% increase

Wait, so some E85 is really E30?

frenchyd wrote:

Knurled wrote:

Huckleberry wrote: Another fuel mileage thread? That makes me want to get drunk and go to my podium driving job at the auction.

What is wrong with not being wasteful? The way I see it, if I can get 25mpg instead of 20, that means I can cut the amount of fuel I use by 20%. Or enjoy my car 25% longer for the same amount of money.

Ethanol has added oxygen in it to reduce pollution.. plus if you read what I found out in actual testing I didn't reduce my mileage by 20% not even 10%! I too believed I would get much worse mileage but real world it was only a little more than 1 MPG less!!!

Realistically, for the last 20 years, the only regulated gas that has gone down significantly in new cars is NOx. HC goes up a little, and some other gasses appear that gasoline does not produce.

The pollution reduction was true in carbed cars- but taking really bad and making it just bad isn't that much help, and there are very few of those cars on the road anymore (relative to the entire fleet, I mean).

T.J. wrote:

frenchyd wrote: I suspect the reason for that is the E85 I get is 30% alcohol compared to the potential to have as much as 85% alcohol. Since all gasoline legal in the state is at least 10%. That's only a 20% increase

Wait, so some E85 is really E30?

It shouldn't be that low. It often gets down to 60 - 70% in the winter, but it shouldn't be lower than that.

T.J. wrote:

frenchyd wrote: I suspect the reason for that is the E85 I get is 30% alcohol compared to the potential to have as much as 85% alcohol. Since all gasoline legal in the state is at least 10%. That's only a 20% increase

Wait, so some E85 is really E30?

Apparently, I simply read what is posted on the pump.. The gas station I buy my E85 has several fuel hoses. There is Non-oxygenated 93 octane but not legal on modern cars (non-collector plates) 93 octane oxygenated. 89 octane 15% ethanol, which is 10 cents cheaper than 87 octane but shouldn't be used on cars older than 2001. 87 octane 10% ethanol. 88octane midgrade 10% ethanol. and E85 which according to the pump has 30% ethanol..

In searching around I haven't seen any full 85% ethanol..

Please remember NASCAR uses 30% ethanol in it's cars and since they switched to E85 I've noticed a distinct reduction in engine failures..

Indy cars on the other hand use 98% ethanol (the 2% added is done so mechanics don't drink the fuel).

Just for information a bottle of Jack Daniels is mostly water and some ethanol.. pure ethanol would be 200 proof..

rslifkin wrote:

T.J. wrote:

frenchyd wrote: I suspect the reason for that is the E85 I get is 30% alcohol compared to the potential to have as much as 85% alcohol. Since all gasoline legal in the state is at least 10%. That's only a 20% increase

Wait, so some E85 is really E30?

It shouldn't be that low. It often gets down to 60 - 70% in the winter, but it shouldn't be lower than that.

I'm reading what is written on the pumps around here.. I think if you do the research you'll find that anything over 30% is called E85.. I guess I can check on that for you if you wish.. Shouldn't be that hard to find out..

Knurled wrote:

Huckleberry wrote: Another fuel mileage thread? That makes me want to get drunk and go to my podium driving job at the auction.

What is wrong with not being wasteful? The way I see it, if I can get 25mpg instead of 20, that means I can cut the amount of fuel I use by 20%. Or enjoy my car 25% longer for the same amount of money.

If you read completely what I wrote about being wasteful E85 will save me over $272 a year in fuel costs.. To me that's a savings instead of a waste.. Brazil went to nearly all ethanol decades ago and because they don't have to import oil their whole economy completely recovered from a massive debt..