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wspohn
wspohn Dork
5/22/20 2:17 p.m.

This really amazes me.

One of my 1950s British cars was assembled with engine on chassis before the body was dropped on and they didn't realize that they had no access to things on the engine until the dealers started sending WTF calls to them (they quickly made a change in production to removable inner fenders).

I remember the Chevy Monza because you couldn't change the last pair of spark plugs unless you unbolted the engine mounts and jacked it up far enough to reach the plugs.

I recall my Mk 2 Jaguar that had no access to the starter motor bolts, so you had to cut an access hole in the foot well, or when the engine was out for something else, use a special set of starter bolts welded to a 'U' shaped piece of metal.

But I thought that sort of stupidity was a thing of the past and am surprised to hear that it still goes on.

Hope the buggers will at least split the cost with you. One trick I have used is to pull out my cell phone, and start recording and tell the guy you are talking about that it is to ensure that what you discussed is on record. Not as good as having a signed order sheet but will do the job and just the fact that they are being recorded makes them sit up and take notice.

gearheadmb
gearheadmb SuperDork
5/22/20 2:18 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
ultraclyde (Forum Supporter) said:
z31maniac said:
ultraclyde (Forum Supporter) said:
wae (Forum Supporter) said:

...the engine has to come out to swap spark plugs?

Apparently. Factory takes the mounts loose and jacks it up but DIYers have done it without. But it ain't easy.

I think designing a car so the engine has to be removed to change a wear item is unreasonable no matter how the dealership dropped the ball. Unfortunately, if he didn't write it on the work order you probably can't get them to honor it. Which is not at all connected to being justifiably pissed off that it didn't get done.

Jacking up the engine a few inches and removing the engine are two entirely different things. 

you're correct. And both are unreasonable to change a spark plug.

That hasn't been the reality since the 1970s. And that was before plugs went from regular maintenance items, to something that the first owner of a vehicle probably will not have to think about.

 

I have never done anything on a Frisbee, but if all you have to do is take off two nuts and jack the engine up, that is fantastic compared to having to remove an intake manifold.  Heck, it would be easier than on some inline fours where there is a whole lot of stuff on top of the engine.

The fwd gm cars with 2.8/3.1/3.4/3.5 engines you have to remove the engine strut braces and tilt the engine to do plugs, and you have to jack up the engine and remove part of the engine mount to replace the belt. I think it hurt sales. They couldn't have sold more than 50 or 60 bajillion of those things. They made up for it by having the easiest water pump replacement ever. Now LT1s, those plugs and wires can kiss my ass. 

slowbird
slowbird SuperDork
5/22/20 2:21 p.m.

Sounds like it's time for a V8 swap. devil

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
5/22/20 2:30 p.m.

In reply to slowbird :

 

I think that will be the plan when this engine inevitably grenades due to the well-known ( except to Toyota) recall failure mode. Seems the recall fix has had more failures than the original recall issue.

 

 

Scion FR-S, Subaru BRZ Owners Claim a Recall Fix Is Destroying Their Engines (Updated)

More owners are reporting problems now than during the actual recall period.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
5/22/20 2:36 p.m.
NOHOME said:

In reply to slowbird :

 

I think that will be the plan when this engine inevitably grenades due to the well-known ( except to Toyota) recall failure mode. Seems the recall fix has had more failures than the original recall issue.

 

If I remember correctly more Toyotas were affected than Subarus because.....  Subaru techs know how to work on Subaru engines better than Toyota techs do.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) Dork
5/22/20 2:39 p.m.

This is why I hate dealerships.  On any car out of warranty, I will not let them touch it.  I think you are better off driving your car into the ground then letting a dealership work on it.  They always want to charge you for 10 repairs you don't need while never fixing the real issue to begin with.  Service reps are sales people, not car people for the most part.  Techs that are good leave dealerships as fast as they can in my experience too, meaning the ones that stay are not the ones you want working on your car. 

 

 

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) Dork
5/22/20 2:40 p.m.

In reply to gearheadmb :

I think i subconsciously sold my LT1 Formula Firebird because I didn't want to change the plugs in it again..devil

ShawnG
ShawnG UltimaDork
5/22/20 2:45 p.m.

In reply to wspohn :

I have some specially bent wrenches from the time I did a Mk2 E-type starter. It can be done but you must be a patient contortionist.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
5/22/20 2:58 p.m.

 

All is well that ends well. Car collected and new plugs installed for cost.

Bet the tech who had to revisit the job had a few choice words.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
5/22/20 3:45 p.m.

In reply to gearheadmb :

Rear plugs in a bunch of V8 cars in the late 70s and 80s required you unbolt the motor mount and jack the engine.  Engines designed in the 50s, cars not.

 

#3 plug in a lot of S10 Blazers requires jacking the engine or removing the steering shaft.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
5/22/20 3:57 p.m.

New Edge Mustangs hade their 4.6 plugs changed at the dealer...by dropping the entire front subframe/k-member. As per Ford instructions. So this ain't just Subaru.

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) Dork
5/22/20 4:00 p.m.
Appleseed said:

New Edge Mustangs hade their 4.6 plugs changed at the dealer...by dropping the entire front subframe/k-member. As per Ford instructions. So this ain't just Subaru.

Not the DOHC ones :).

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
5/22/20 4:01 p.m.
Appleseed said:

New Edge Mustangs hade their 4.6 plugs changed at the dealer...by dropping the entire front subframe/k-member. As per Ford instructions. So this ain't just Subaru.

Huh?  Why?  They go in through the top!

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
5/22/20 4:04 p.m.
Appleseed said:

New Edge Mustangs hade their 4.6 plugs changed at the dealer...by dropping the entire front subframe/k-member. As per Ford instructions. So this ain't just Subaru.

Didn't the 4.6 plugs have some bizarre two piece design that liked to break in the worst possible way?  ....or am I thinking of something else?

b13990
b13990 Reader
5/22/20 4:28 p.m.
Cactus said:

I'd take a hole saw to whatever sheet metal is in the way. Make an access port.

That was what those portholes Buick used to put on cars were for. Back two plugs would've been damn near impossible on a Nailhead V8 without them.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
5/22/20 4:30 p.m.
b13990 said:
Cactus said:

I'd take a hole saw to whatever sheet metal is in the way. Make an access port.

That was what those portholes Buick used to put on cars were for. Back two plugs would've been damn near impossible on a Nailhead V8 without them.

Rather not have holes in the frame rails.

 

 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
5/22/20 5:06 p.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

It's okay you can put plugs in the holes you drill for the plugs. laugh

Ranger50
Ranger50 UltimaDork
5/22/20 6:06 p.m.
MrFancypants said:
Appleseed said:

New Edge Mustangs hade their 4.6 plugs changed at the dealer...by dropping the entire front subframe/k-member. As per Ford instructions. So this ain't just Subaru.

Didn't the 4.6 plugs have some bizarre two piece design that liked to break in the worst possible way?  ....or am I thinking of something else?

That's the 3 valve variation., 05-09?.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
5/22/20 6:27 p.m.
Ranger50 said:
MrFancypants said:
Appleseed said:

New Edge Mustangs hade their 4.6 plugs changed at the dealer...by dropping the entire front subframe/k-member. As per Ford instructions. So this ain't just Subaru.

Didn't the 4.6 plugs have some bizarre two piece design that liked to break in the worst possible way?  ....or am I thinking of something else?

That's the 3 valve variation., 05-09?.

Yeah that's what I was trying to think of. Thanks for that.

mad_machine (Forum Supporter)
mad_machine (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/22/20 9:13 p.m.
docwyte said:

That's just dealer pricing.  My Porsche dealer wanted $1400 just in labor to install the spark plugs and coil packs I already had sitting on my work bench.  That's with my 10% PCA discount too, so really it was $1575.  I installed them myself in 3 hours and I'd never done the job before.  A Porsche tech could do it in 1.5-2 hours, so a $750+/hour labor rate, which is more than I make as a doctor

I recently did the plugs and wires on my disco. To get at the coils, you are supposed to remove the top of the intake as they are under the back of the intake between the block and firewall. Three hours later I did the job by carefully wiggling my fingers down into that hole and doing it all by feel

BlindPirate
BlindPirate Reader
5/22/20 9:27 p.m.
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to gearheadmb :

I think i subconsciously sold my LT1 Formula Firebird because I didn't want to change the plugs in it again..devil

The rear plugs were tough, but not impossible. The wires on the other hand, I have no idea how to do those.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
5/22/20 9:40 p.m.

In reply to BlindPirate :

Had a customer with some sort of aftermarket heads on an LT1 in a 4th-gen.  The spark plugs were at a different angle than stock.

The only way to remove the #7 spark plug wire was to remove the left side header.  The boot was in hard contact with the tube and was only saved from a melty death by excellent DEI heat shield boots.

Because it was a 4th-gen, to remove the left side header you had to remove the Y-pipe first, which is fun with an aftermarket system that has no flanges, with slip joints that have had time to corrode together.  Because it was headers on an LT1, you needed a collection of 3/8" and 7/16" stubby wrenches ground down razor thin so you could get the header bolts out, one flat at a time.

 

NOW.  Tell me how much of a hardship it is to be able to get easy access to spark plugs by simply unbolting the motor mounts and raising the engine a bit...

 

 

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) PowerDork
5/23/20 8:58 a.m.

A BRZ/FRS was on my short list to replace my MINI, but after this thread that may change. But, there is an FRS for sale locally with a blown engine, and I do have an aluminum LS in the garage.  Another project would never get done........

mad_machine (Forum Supporter)
mad_machine (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/23/20 9:28 a.m.
BlindPirate said:
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to gearheadmb :

I think i subconsciously sold my LT1 Formula Firebird because I didn't want to change the plugs in it again..devil

The rear plugs were tough, but not impossible. The wires on the other hand, I have no idea how to do those.

that the last of the Fgens where the back of the engine is under the windshield? I can see why you didn't want to play with the plugs and wires

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/23/20 9:32 a.m.

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

And yet people love to complain how the MINI is hard to work on (it's not). cheeky

At least NOHOME's dealer experience ended well.  I was so ticked off by the VW dealer after I bought my TDI, I never went back to them for anything. I won't even give them recall work.  And was sure to tell them why in no uncertain terms each time they called and managed to get through. 

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