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Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
5/23/20 10:35 a.m.
mad_machine (Forum Supporter) said:
BlindPirate said:
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to gearheadmb :

I think i subconsciously sold my LT1 Formula Firebird because I didn't want to change the plugs in it again..devil

The rear plugs were tough, but not impossible. The wires on the other hand, I have no idea how to do those.

that the last of the Fgens where the back of the engine is under the windshield? I can see why you didn't want to play with the plugs and wires

The plug wires are routed in old school Chevy fashion from underneath instead of over the valve covers, and the distributor cap is behind the water pump.

The wires for the even bank route under the accessory bracket.

The plugs are not too bad, assuming it has factory manifolds (#2 and 4 are the worst for access), but the wires suuuuuuck.

(Jesse) Ransom
(Jesse) Ransom UltimaDork
5/23/20 10:59 a.m.

I wish service were a higher consideration on everything. Glad the FRS has come to a happy conclusion and we can spend a little time wondering how the berk some of these packagings seemed like good ideas...

I'm annoyed but not shocked at how hard it is to get at the MGB's speedo cable on the back of the dash (came pretty close to pulling the steering column; we'll see whether I get it reinstalled without doing that), but completely blown away by how all the added bracketry and plumbing on the '97 F250 is so thoughtlessly arranged that it eats all that vast space and puts a bracket, stiff hose, hard line, or random wizgibbet everywhere you want to put a hand or a wrench.

parker
parker Reader
5/23/20 2:11 p.m.

I'll say it again.  The difficulty of changing plugs on the 86 platform is WAY overstated.  It's really not that hard.  It's not 240Z easy, but an hour in the driveway will do it.  And it's only every 60,000 miles.  

 

dj06482
dj06482 UltraDork
5/23/20 2:51 p.m.
Appleseed said:

New Edge Mustangs hade their 4.6 plugs changed at the dealer...by dropping the entire front subframe/k-member. As per Ford instructions. So this ain't just Subaru.

Don't think this applies to the SOHC (2V) ones either! I changed mine around four years ago, and the engine most definitely stayed in the car. I don't remember anything about the plug change except using a *slightly* higher torque value than stock on the plugs. Other than that, the plug change was unremarkable.

MrFancypants
MrFancypants Reader
5/23/20 3:46 p.m.
parker said:

I'll say it again.  The difficulty of changing plugs on the 86 platform is WAY overstated.  It's really not that hard.  It's not 240Z easy, but an hour in the driveway will do it.  And it's only every 60,000 miles.  

 

Yeah, it looks a lot more intimidating than it actually is. This is an easy job for anyone that works on cars often enough to own a basic mechanics tool kit. Takes an hour, jack not required.

If dealerships are charging $600 for this service they are absolutely abusing their customers.

dean1484
dean1484 MegaDork
5/23/20 5:20 p.m.
docwyte said:

That's just dealer pricing.  My Porsche dealer wanted $1400 just in labor to install the spark plugs and coil packs I already had sitting on my work bench.  That's with my 10% PCA discount too, so really it was $1575.  I installed them myself in 3 hours and I'd never done the job before.  A Porsche tech could do it in 1.5-2 hours, so a $750+/hour labor rate, which is more than I make as a doctor

This is why my friend started a 911 only shop and most things are half dealer rates for jobs and he makes bank and has had a waiting list of clients that is out as far as a year for scheduled services on clients cars. 

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
5/23/20 6:03 p.m.

In reply to parker :

True of the second time you do it. Maybe, and to be honest, I have looked at it, and doubt that it cold ever be done in less than 2 hours.

In my case, it was $480 cheaper if it was done at the same time as the engine was out of the car. Plugs at $32 each is a bit much IMO. 

If I was the tech who had to do this over, I would want to bitch slap the service rep. "The berkeleying plugs were out, sitting on the bench in front of me, and now I have to change them out?"

dculberson (Forum Supporter)
dculberson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/23/20 7:43 p.m.

The dealer overcharging for the repair doesn't surprise me in the least. $600 for a 30 minute job sounds about right in my recent experience. 
 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/car-dealership-overcharging-on-repair/170132/page1/

that was $2000 for less than 2 hours labor. Dealers have officially gone insane on repair rates. I'm shocked anyone gets any cars worked on by a dealer these days. Other than recalls of course. 

parker
parker Reader
5/23/20 8:03 p.m.
NOHOME said:

In reply to parker :

True of the second time you do it. Maybe, and to be honest, I have looked at it, and doubt that it cold ever be done in less than 2 hours.

In my case, it was $480 cheaper if it was done at the same time as the engine was out of the car. Plugs at $32 each is a bit much IMO. 

If I was the tech who had to do this over, I would want to bitch slap the service rep. "The berkeleying plugs were out, sitting on the bench in front of me, and now I have to change them out?"

I did it first time in under an hour.  Of course I've been working on cars for 30+ years.  

 

But yeah, they totally should have done it when the engine was already out.

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
5/24/20 9:27 a.m.
parker said:
NOHOME said:

In reply to parker :

True of the second time you do it. Maybe, and to be honest, I have looked at it, and doubt that it cold ever be done in less than 2 hours.

In my case, it was $480 cheaper if it was done at the same time as the engine was out of the car. Plugs at $32 each is a bit much IMO. 

If I was the tech who had to do this over, I would want to bitch slap the service rep. "The berkeleying plugs were out, sitting on the bench in front of me, and now I have to change them out?"

I did it first time in under an hour.  Of course I've been working on cars for 30+ years.  

 

But yeah, they totally should have done it when the engine was already out.

 

Picture it:  Last year, and a unicorn comes in:  Acura TL type S, with the SH-AWD and 3.7l ultimate experession of Honda V6 power.  Well, sort of ultimate, it had a dead miss.   The long hand-written note said that he had a misfire but he knew it was not the spark plugs because he just had them changed 2000mi ago when he had the piston rings replaced under warranty.

 

I, being a technician of the "verify everything" mentality, verified the dead miss and proceeded to start by removing the spark plug.  Spark plug looked like it had done a trip to the moon and back, gap was over .080".  And the plug well was full of oil because whoever put the valve cover on just rammed it home instead of setting it down and using a pocket screwdriver to work the plug well gasket over, so the plug well gasket was shredded.  Actually, ALL of te plug well gaskets were shredded, and the coil boots were oil soaked.

 

Needless to say, the car's owner was furious.  We did not do the repair because he (rightly) took it back to the dealer to have them unberkeley the horrible job they did, and also replace the spark plugs that they billed him for.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
5/24/20 10:00 a.m.

I note that there were 4 used plugs sitting on the PS seat when I got in the car. I STILL have the urge to pull one out just cause I cant trust anyone anymore!

wspohn
wspohn Dork
5/24/20 11:11 a.m.

I have never taken a car back to the dealer for anything except authorized warranty work.

And even when I did take it in to the dealer for warranty, I had to go in armed with the TSB that described the issue and the way to fix it as they were clueless (to be fair, I suppose they just hadn't had to do that particular job before). That was with GM.

I did profit from one dealer sales semi-scam, the prepaid oil change plan.  Think it was something like $500 added to the cost of my wife's Mazda to have free oil changes for as long as you own the car. As it never goes in for anything other than oil changes, and they intentionally set a frequent change interval so they can get you in and sell you other services you might (or might not) need, we are way ahead on that deal.  And every time the salesmen at the dealership contact us to see if we are ready to trade it in on a new car, I tell than that the salesman we bought it from told us the cars were reliable and would last for years, so we will be keeping it another decade or so. Unless it does become unreliable, in which case the salesman lied to us and why would we ever go back for that sort of treatment again....we are probably not their favourite customers.

BTW, the fact that the factory labour schedule calls for a certain amount of time for a given job may not mean much. They are set to cover an average time for a mechanic, but I've seen a couple of cases where a given job could be done in half the time using a slightly different approach.  

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
5/24/20 11:23 a.m.

In reply to wspohn :

Quoted labor times assume official service manual procedures and hand tools, three times in a row and averaged, on a new vehicle.  Most every place I worked added 10% flat, to 10% per year of the car's age, because the service guide does not take into account having to fight rust.

I do find it amusing that I spend $400-500 per month for a tool bill to make jobs go faster when the majority of the benefit goes to my employers.  OTOH, I am paid hourly now, and I get a tool allowance that boils down to $1 per billed labor hour, which is nice.

There is also a fudge factor like SAE Gross horsepower, where they take the measured time and divide it by the "We don't want to pay that much" factor.  Which is why, say, the labor time for engine R&R on a 5.4l E250 is 24 hours, or 8 hours under warranty.  8 hours, I'd sit in the break room and drink coffee before doing that if I were flat rate.

docwyte
docwyte UberDork
5/24/20 7:37 p.m.
dculberson (Forum Supporter) said:
I'm shocked anyone gets any cars worked on by a dealer these days. Other than recalls of course. 

The issue is all the independent shops around me in Denver now charge flat rate too.  Their labor rate isn't all that different from the dealer, nor are their parts prices. 

So why should I take it to an Indy vs the dealer?  The dealer has extended hours, very nice free loaner cars, can come pick up and deliver the car, etc.  An Indy has none of that and is far more inconvenient for me to drop off/pick up from.

In the past, Indy's would charge the customer the actual hours it took them to complete the job as well as having a labor rate that was quite a bit less than the dealer.  That created a substantial cost savings for the customer, more than enough to offset the inconvenience of no loaner car etc. Those days, at least near me, are gone.

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