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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » And you wonder what happened to the British car industry...

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July 14, 2011 4:10 p.m. Keith SuperDork

So, it looks like my poor Mini has developed a problem with the idler gear bearing or something closely related. When researching, I came across this little gem from Keith Calver on the Mini Spares website. Keep in mind that the classic Mini was in production until 2000. So that's 8 years of using whatever shims happened to be in the bin.

Mini Spares said:
End float is a continual problem as folk either ignore it through ignorance or lack of accessible information on how to do it, or belief special tools are needed. Also, later factory assembled engine units (from about 1992 onwards) were built up using whatever shims and thrust washers were available, since Rover were not making regular orders for all shim/washer sizes due to the forthcoming end of production. Consequently, many units left Rover with incorrect (usually too big) clearances. The idler gear was no exception.

http://www.minispares.com/Articles.aspx?ty=ad&aid=107

On a lighter note, I parked it beside the Dodge last night. Yes, the front bumpers are in line.
July 14, 2011 4:24 p.m. Dr. Hess SuperDork

I read an article on what happened after Ford bought Jaguar. They sent their Ford guys over to look at what they bought. They came back not believing anything could possibly be that bad. Parts coming in from Lucas obviously broken, put on the car anyway, sent out the door, etc.

Then, on the original Yahoo Locost list, not the sub lists after The Great Split, but the original list, people would discuss tolerances to build to, etc., and the English guys would invariably say "You're not making a Swiss watch, mate." I maintain that was the motto of the English car industry.
July 14, 2011 4:35 p.m. FlightService HalfDork
July 14, 2011 4:48 p.m. mad_machine SuperDork

that is a real shame, Dr.Used to be industry started in the UK.. but I guess they forgot how
July 14, 2011 4:59 p.m. Hasbro Dork

Keith Calver is an amazing guy. The mini tech guru. At the time , everyone was poo-pooing building a 1400. I had a 1380 at the time and wrote him asking about the 1400. He wrote a very long letter back with all the steps and parts needed.
July 14, 2011 5:40 p.m. BoxheadTim SuperDork

In reply to Dr. Hess:

Been like that for a while, too. A friend of mine loves recounting the story that during WW2, the Brits sent over the blueprints to the RR Merlin aeroengine (IIRC the most powerful piston engine on the Allied side). US manufacturers built them exactly as per blueprint as they were used to, using only the best (then US-made) tooling.

Bloomin' things wouldn't turn over, or seize almost immediately.

So the Brits sent over a couple of Men In Brown Coats (aka engineers) to lend a helping hand and they went: "Oh, you built them according to the plans? That's not how you do it - you increase the tolerance a little here and cut this part a little more generously, plus over there the machinist should use some gut feeling rather than exact numbers...".

And yo and behold, working Merlin.

Basically, thanks to the chronic underinvestment in industry even back then, the plans were drawn up on the assumption that the somewhat worn out tools and machinery would lead to the correct result.

IME the only thing that seems to have changed over the years is that the manufacturing tolerances have increased.
July 14, 2011 5:45 p.m. iceracer SuperDork

Packard built all of the US Merlins. Seems they figured it out.
July 14, 2011 5:46 p.m. byron12 Reader

Dr. Hess wrote:

the English guys would invariably say "You're not making a Swiss watch, mate." I maintain that was the motto of the English car industry.

I love that I build cars for a living and I am going say that at work.
July 14, 2011 5:54 p.m. BoxheadTim SuperDork

In reply to iceracer:

IIRC after the "help" from the Brits, they did adjust the blueprints .
July 14, 2011 6:32 p.m. Graefin10 Reader

I'm sure many of you are aware of how worthless the first generation of Lucas electronic ignition systems were that came over here in the late 70's. I have no idea how many of those I replaced. It wasn't uncommon to have to take a new one to get a car started that just came off the hauler and wouldn't start. Having said that, after They moved the module away from the engine heat they were quite reliable.

We had a special class on the Rover 3500 to educate us on how to maintain it. The instructor actually was from England. The main thing I remember was a rather lengthy explanation of how to service the relays. As it turned out, they were not always placed in the same location. So part of our education was on how to determine where the relays were located. All of us just stared at him in dissbelief.

I have loved British sports cars since I was 9 and was very sad to see their demise. The Miata success story proves that they could have still flourished if different attitudes had prevailed. Then of course there's the story of the demise of the American manufacturers
July 14, 2011 7:48 p.m. alfadriver SuperDork

Dr. Hess wrote:

I read an article on what happened after Ford bought Jaguar. They sent their Ford guys over to look at what they bought. They came back not believing anything could possibly be that bad. Parts coming in from Lucas obviously broken, put on the car anyway, sent out the door, etc.

Worst $1.5B ever spent. Well, should add up all of the money wasted after that, too.

(on a woulda, coulda, shoulda note- had it not been for Fiat, those same guys would have visted Alfa Romeo. Once that deal went bad, Jag was the "reply". NO idea what they would have met with there.... )
July 14, 2011 7:53 p.m. Keith SuperDork

I don't think BMW did so well with Rover either. Isn't that the one where they actually gave the company away in the end?
July 14, 2011 10:54 p.m. Luke SuperDork

Looks like you could very nearly fit that Mini in the bed of the truck!
July 15, 2011 4:35 a.m. Ian F SuperDork

In reply to Keith:

It seems BMW got exactly what they wanted out of Rover - MINI and RR, with Triumph as a back-pocket bonus, then quickly dumped the rest.

I've tried to explain the lack of build quality to my g/f whenever her Spitfire is being annoying. Still doesn't get it sometimes...
July 15, 2011 6:41 a.m. mad_machine SuperDork

that may be the case with alfa and fiat.. but at least the italians know how to build an engine to spec
July 15, 2011 8:23 a.m. racerdave600 HalfDork

It reminds me of a friend who was a tech at the local Land Rover dealer. It seems a few years ago (maybe still) they had to send every one they got in through the shop to fix what was wrong. It wasn't uncommon for them to send them out with clear faults, some major, only for dealer to work through them.

Many times they were electrical in nature. As soon as you turned the key smoke would start coming out of somewhere. Evidently the first thing the did was turn the key and find out what was going to short out. It seems they woudl install the electrics and then randomly mount other items damaging the connections, wires, or components. Of course there was major engine issues as well..
July 15, 2011 8:37 a.m. car39 Reader

There was a story in a magazine a few years back about the Morris dealer in San Fran complaining to his all too British rep about the lack of power. After being told the car had plenty of power, the dealer asked the rep to drive up the street to pick up a cup of coffee. The guy turns out of the driveway onto a hill and just stays there. The car did not have enough power to go up the hill without a running start. The dealer walks up to the driver's door and asks if the rep could see the problem now?
July 15, 2011 9:01 a.m. Rusted_Busted_Spit Dork

Sad, sad, sad. I would still love an old Jag or Aston though.
July 15, 2011 5:26 p.m. 93EXCivic SuperDork

I still love the British cars (says the guy who just got a Spitfire and is real thinking about a XJS).
July 15, 2011 6:17 p.m. Toyman01 SuperDork

I love British cars too, as long as they pass through Curmudgeon garage for some rotary loving first.
July 15, 2011 8:44 p.m. Aeromoto New Reader

In reply to BoxheadTim:

Its off topic here, but to be fair and accurate, Merlins were not the most powerful allied piston engines of the war, nor were they the most durable or reliable. I would argue that Pratt & Whitney and Wright made legendary radial engines right here in the US that were far more powerful, waaay more durable, and contributed far more to the winning effort than the V-12s did. The Mustangs and Spitfires main advantage was their airframes, not their engines.

Sorry, but I'm a huge radial engine fan and I just couldn't resist. Forgive me and carry on.......
July 15, 2011 8:51 p.m. 93EXCivic SuperDork

In reply to Aeromoto:

Except the Hurricane and Spitfire won the Battle of Britain saving the free world in the process thanks in large part to the Merlin engine.
July 16, 2011 7:36 a.m. akamcfly Reader

93EXCivic wrote:

In reply to Aeromoto:

Except the Hurricane and Spitfire won the Battle of Britain saving the free world in the process thanks in large part to the Merlin engine.

And radar - don't forget radar.
July 16, 2011 7:58 a.m. carzan HalfDork

akamcfly wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

In reply to Aeromoto:

Except the Hurricane and Spitfire won the Battle of Britain saving the free world in the process thanks in large part to the Merlin engine.

And radar - don't forget radar.

Radar was a Korean war hero. HOGAN saved the free world in WWII. Get yer facts straight, mister!

Oh, and he got the chicks, too!!
July 16, 2011 9:16 a.m. iceracer SuperDork

Aeromoto wrote:

In reply to BoxheadTim:

Its off topic here, but to be fair and accurate, Merlins were not the most powerful allied piston engines of the war, nor were they the most durable or reliable. I would argue that Pratt & Whitney and Wright made legendary radial engines right here in the US that were far more powerful, waaay more durable, and contributed far more to the winning effort than the V-12s did. The Mustangs and Spitfires main advantage was their airframes, not their engines.

Sorry, but I'm a huge radial engine fan and I just couldn't resist. Forgive me and carry on.......

The Wright engine were notorious oil leakers, The PW's not so much. Still needed drip pans. Never saw a Merlin that had to be pulled over by hand before starting. The Mustangs with Allisons were not great performers. They really became able to use that airframe when they got the Merlins

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