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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Another plea for the late night talk-down...Alfa GTV6.

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July 19, 2009 3:58 a.m. Luke Dork

Congratulations! Sounds like a smart buy, (well, 'smart' for a 1980's Alfa Romeo project, anyway .)

By the way, here's a bit of badge history:

It is generally accepted that the badge is based on the coat of arms of the Visconti family and the Red cross on a white back ground of Milan. In the early part of the 5th century AD a serpent that devoured humans was at large in the area around Milan and terrifying the local populous. It was slain by Ottoni Visconti and this heroic deed was celebrated as part of the coat of arms. .

http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/alfa_romeo_badge.shtml
July 19, 2009 5:37 a.m. ddavidv UltraDork

For what you're paying, you can part it out if you decide you went wrong and be ok. Any time that happens you did fine. Though I'm not big on brining one back from a 10 year slumber (all the hydraulics will be crap, fer sure) once you have the engine running a lot of the pain will be forgiven. IMO (and it really is just MO), get it running, driving and reliable and say screw it to the cosmetics aside from any further prevention of rot. Just drive th ever-loving snot out of it. Alfas should be driven, hard. Let the next idiot worry about turning it into some kind of showpiece. Spend your money where it matters: making that V6 howl
July 19, 2009 7:48 p.m. friedgreencorrado HalfDork

Thanks guys. Plans at the moment are to immediately change the timing belt & water pump, take the plugs out & drool a little Marvel Mystery Oil or something into the cylinders, and see if she'll turn by hand (always clockwise, right?) I'll then go through the engine compartment hoses (I here there's a pretty good kit to do all the vaccum lines at once), and wires and try to get her fired up.

Then I'll do the brakes and clutch hydraulics from one end to the other. Can the masters & slave be rebuilt, or will I need new ones? And hearing what I'm hearing about rear calipers (the adjusters), should I just replace them while I'm under there? I thought I saw rebuilt rears for about $100 plus core on one of the Alfa sites. The inboard brakes sound cool, but I sure don't want to have to go in there more than I have to. I was just thinking it's easier to to it all once, since the car's off the road anyway.

Oh, and I think he neglected to mark the two halves of the driveshaft when he pulled it out of the car. Any way to determine how to balance it without having to bolt it up three times?

Thanks again everyone! I'm a GT car fanatic, I've even had thoughts of a cross-marque GT club from time to time. This thing seems like it's going to be a really fun car once I've got it all awake & working again, and the Alfa 6 sounds absolutely glorious in every vid I've watched on youtube. I guess everybody ought to go Italian once..I know it's the closest to a Ferarri I'll ever get.

Should be coming home next weekend, I'm selling the stock & calling the guy to tell him I want it tommorow morning.

And thanks to Luke for the badge story!
July 19, 2009 8:14 p.m. pigeon Reader

I still can't get past the "he said he'd take $1k but I offered $1300" part -- did you ask him if he'd deliver it for $1k?? Other than that, great buy and have fun with a real Italian GT car. My first autocross experience was a ride along in a prepped Alfa, and I'll never forget the way that car looked, sounded and handled.
July 19, 2009 8:28 p.m. Travis_K HalfDork

You should be able to just rebuild the calipers. As long as the bolts on the bolts on the cv joints arent frozen the rear brakes are wasy to work on, just really hard to bleed. You may or may not need to replace the timing belt tensioner or rebuild it (depends on what kind it has), read more about that on the alfabb or whatever. Id plan on replacing the cam seals too ( I need to do that on mine soon).
July 19, 2009 10:35 p.m. RossD Reader

+1 for the alfabb.com

A guy at work is in the process of getting his GTV6 road worthy after sitting for a while. He's already stripped another GTV6 and a Milano. He took off some of the plastic parts and found more rust than he wanted to find.
July 19, 2009 11:19 p.m. friedgreencorrado HalfDork

pigeon wrote:

I still can't get past the "he said he'd take $1k but I offered $1300" part -- did you ask him if he'd deliver it for $1k??

ROFL! So true. All I can say is that I'm a Southern Boy, he's a SB, and our culture just kinda got in the way.

pigeon wrote: Other than that, great buy and have fun with a real Italian GT car. My first autocross experience was a ride along in a prepped Alfa, and I'll never forget the way that car looked, sounded and handled.

Thanks. I'm actually looking forward to it. I'm pretty proud of my black Corrado (another abandoned project that I stole), but I've come to realize that it was much closer to done than this one is. It'll do me some good to have to really rebuild something again.
July 19, 2009 11:38 p.m. friedgreencorrado HalfDork

Travis_K wrote:

You should be able to just rebuild the calipers. As long as the bolts on the bolts on the cv joints arent frozen the rear brakes are wasy to work on, just really hard to bleed. You may or may not need to replace the timing belt tensioner or rebuild it (depends on what kind it has), read more about that on the alfabb or whatever. Id plan on replacing the cam seals too ( I need to do that on mine soon).

Travis, I hate to keep leaning on ya, but you & Luke seem to know these cars pretty well. I can rebuild the calipers as long as I'm not stupid enough to split them, right? And of course, since it's been sitting for so long, I'd like to put new discs on it as well. I'm gonna buy five cans of "Freeze-Off", and hope I can get the shafts (CVs) off without stripping anything. I'll bet the CV boots are dried out as well...perhaps I should attend to that while the car is off the ground.

And I did spend a little time lurking over at alfabb, but they all talk about the TB tensioner options from the POV of folks that already understand these cars. Thanks for the heads-up on the cam seals. Can I wait until after I've got the thing running again to do that? I've already planned on valve cover gaskets, since everyone says take them off to double-check alignment on the cams when you do the timing belt replacement for the first time..I sure don't want to bend any valves on an Alfa! Geez, I thought BMW parts were expensive..
July 20, 2009 12:18 a.m. Travis_K HalfDork

There are pretty much 3 choices on the timing belt tensioners, none of them are terribly good, but its just part of owning one. The stock tensioner used oil pressure to take some of the load off the belt at higher rpm, so it lasts longer, but they require rebuilding everytime you change the belt (or even more ferquently). Or you can block the oil feed to the stock tensioner and it will still work fine. Or you can get a mechanical one, which has a spring that can break if you install it wrong or it wasnt made right, and you replace them every belt change. On the alfabb, check the 164 section for timing belt stuff, its mostly the same engine, and there is alot more info there.

I think the gtv6 has the pulleys that the center part is seperate, if so changing the cam seals doesnt require taking the belt off, but its easier to do it all at once anyway.

I dont think it will hurt if you split the caliper halves, I did when i did mine and they dont leak.

Changing the cv boots is a bit complicated, mainly just figuring out how to press the shaft out of the joint, but if you need help i can explain how i did it.
July 20, 2009 1:48 a.m. friedgreencorrado HalfDork

Travis_K wrote:

There are pretty much 3 choices on the timing belt tensioners, none of them are terribly good, but its just part of owning one. The stock tensioner used oil pressure to take some of the load off the belt at higher rpm, so it lasts longer, but they require rebuilding everytime you change the belt (or even more ferquently).

Yeah, I saw that one over on alfabb. Some folks like that one, but say that you really have to be tender with the engine until oil comes up to temp. I got the impression that there is no tension on the belt until then.

Travis_K wrote: Or you can block the oil feed to the stock tensioner and it will still work fine.

Really? Has it got a "big assed spring" in it or something? I'm not doubting you, dude...I'm just trying to get it running again without berkeleying up something.

Travis_K wrote: Or you can get a mechanical one, which has a spring that can break if you install it wrong or it wasnt made right, and you replace them every belt change.

Sure sounds like I've got to change the tensioner every time I change the belt anyway..I guess I just want the one that extends the engine's life the most.

Travis_K wrote: On the alfabb, check the 164 section for timing belt stuff, its mostly the same engine, and there is alot more info there.

Thanks. One of my old SCCA Worker buddies had a 164 for awhile...I thought it was a great car, but didn't really pay much attention to it, since I didn't think I'd ever own one. Thanks for the tip!

Travis_K wrote: I think the gtv6 has the pulleys that the center part is seperate, if so changing the cam seals doesnt require taking the belt off, but its easier to do it all at once anyway.

Something I've read over at alfabb..it looks like the cams can be taken off to do the valve gap without taking the cam gears off. Could I also take the cam gears off to do the seals without removing the cams?

Travis_K wrote: I dont think it will hurt if you split the caliper halves, I did when i did mine and they dont leak.

I think that if they've been dry for this long, the calipers won't have corrosion on the internal parts. The fluid ports should blow clean with a little WD40 and a lot of compressed air.

Travis_K wrote: Changing the cv boots is a bit complicated, mainly just figuring out how to press the shaft out of the joint, but if you need help i can explain how i did it.

Dude, I'll be sure to ping you if & when it goes that far.

Thanks again, Travis.
July 20, 2009 2:44 a.m. Travis_K HalfDork

Only the rebuilf kit is available for the stock tensioner. I am not exactly sure how it works, but I do know that the oil pressure only detensions the belt when the engine is warm at higher rpm. Its most like to slip/break when you are starting the car. You dont need to remove the cams to replace the seals, unless it is really worn out, just adjust the exhaust valves (unless you really want to remove the cams).

The problem with the rear calipers is you have to manually adjust the pad cleaarance, and the adjusters will leak if they havent been adjusted for a while. Thats why they need rebuilding. It may take you a couple of days to get all the air out of the lines when you bleed them, and you will need a pressre bleeder.
July 20, 2009 4:35 a.m. Luke Dork

friedgreencorrado wrote: Travis, I hate to keep leaning on ya, but you & Luke seem to know these cars pretty well.

Hah, thanks, but Travis is the tech-expert, not I.

I can show you this, though. It's a rather helpful post on the Aussie Alfa Romeo club forum, detailing the GTV6 water pump and timing belt change. Lots of little tips that may come in handy when you get 'round to doing it yourself.

http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=1340.0

There's quite a lot of other useful info on there, too, although it's a fraction of the size of the AlfaBB.
July 20, 2009 5:24 a.m. ddavidv UltraDork

When I worked in the Alfa dealer parts department, we never rebuilt brake hydraulics. Probably wasn't cost effective, but it also was likely done to avoid the potential problems with one that didn't 'take'. I know Fiat stuff we always just tossed and put new on because the parts were so cheap. My tech rebuilt the oil fed tensioners all the time but once the 164 came out we started using the mechanical tensioners as a replacement. I don't recall ever having a problem with those, but that was early in their lifespan.

When we ran out of something or shopped for a cheaper alternative we bought a lot of parts from DiFatta Brothers down near Baltimore. Those guys know Alfas like nobody else. Prices were usually very good. We also did some buying from International Auto but a lot of that was reciprocal as I was selling them a lot of their genuine Alfa parts.
July 20, 2009 10:59 a.m. Travis_K HalfDork

I dont know all that much, but i have done a few of the jobs, like brakes, cv boots, suspension, etc. I need to do the timing belt on mine soon though. I think the mechanical timing belt tensioners were redesigned, because alot of the original ones failed and bent the valves in the engines they were on. People still have trouble with them sometimes though.

You have to be careful buying from IAP now, they have some good stuff, but they also have come not so good stuff too. Performatek has alot of performance parts, and can get some of the matiance stuff as well.
July 20, 2009 1:26 p.m. 81gtv6 Reader

I got the rebuilt calipers for the back of mine, they are not that expensive and are the most complicated ones I have ever worked on. I am sure it is not that bad to rebuild them yourself but they scared me a little.

I also got the mechanical T belt tensioner and and it was working fine. It took some time to get it set right, there is not much room in there, but they do work.

Back to the rear brakes, I relpaced the disks on mine and it took like a week to get it done. The axels are slpit and the disk is bolted into the split with like 6 bolts on each disk. There is not enough room to really get a good bite on the bolts and there is a lot of pressure on them. I ended up having to use my Dremel to X cut the heads and then pound the bolts out, it sucked bad. If the ones on your car are in questionalbe shape this is one place I would recommend quality cross drilled rotors. They are known for getting hot because of where they are and being non vented they like to stay hot so I think the cooling aspect outweigh the cracking issue.

Another thing to look for is the needles on the tach and speedo tend to warp with heat and age. The gages come appart fairly easly so it would be possible to fix them but it is something to look out for. Also the solder joints on the sender for the speedo are well known to crack makeing the speedo inop. I took mine apart and reheated the solder and it worked for almost two years, I think a new one was like $60 or so.

I am glad you got it, now I don't have to try and talk my wife into letting me get another one so that I can make one good one out of two. They are great cars to drive and listen to, I will have another one at some point but for now I am trying to get situated to get an Elise this fall.

If you do get to the point where you want/need a complete parts car let me know.
July 20, 2009 7:31 p.m. mrwillie New Reader

What 'cha gonna do w/ the golf?
July 21, 2009 12:31 a.m. friedgreencorrado HalfDork

mrwillie wrote:

What 'cha gonna do w/ the golf?

Same as I've been doing with it for 17 years,..except for the lil' vacation after she got hit...DD. The basic goodness of the VW A2 (especially with the 8v) is actually what allows me to go off on tangents like this. Right size, right weight, great fuel mileage, and with the Tokikos & Neuspeeds, it's an absolute ball to drive without killing me over the bumps. It's tough, parts are still kinda cheap, and it costs me next to nothing to maintain & insure.

I'll probably just throw some paint over the primer and just enjoy the thing being a "survivor" rather than going for the 100pt concourse win.

Or were you just hoping I'd sell it to ya?
July 21, 2009 12:49 a.m. friedgreencorrado HalfDork

Travis_K wrote:

I dont think it will hurt if you split the caliper halves, I did when i did mine and they dont leak.

Travis, perhaps I should have said "..as long as I stay within my comfort level.." rather than "..stupid enough.."

Didn't mean to insult ya, dude. If no one could split calipers, we wouldn't have rebuilt units in the first place, would we?

I think I'm agreeing with 81gtv6 here...profesionally rebuilt units are only about $100 & change a piece, I think I'll just go that route. I'm not the best mechanic on Earth, but I'm one hell of a "parts changer". There's other things I can do to keep the costs down elsewhere...I don't think I'm going to skimp on the brakes on a car that's been sitting for so long.
July 21, 2009 3:18 a.m. Travis_K HalfDork

Lol i didnt even think that, I said that becasue someone on the alfabb was told that they ruined the calipers by splitting them, but it really doesnt hurt anything. Seriously, you should be able to rebuild them both in like 30 minutes. I had never rebuilt a caliper before and i didnt have any trouble doing it. You can actually get a kit to convert to vented rear discs, but its like $250. If you like A2 vws, i have to warn you, once you drive an alfa, they wont seem fun anymore. I was going to get a vw, but i couldnt even find one that ran well enough I thought it would make it home, and i couldnt find any information on fixing them, then i went and drive the milano, and it was like oh, that is what i thought the vws would be like, but they were a bit disapointing. lol
July 21, 2009 5:22 a.m. ddavidv UltraDork

Yeah, I don't get the paranoia over split calipers. I did them on my Mini, and lots of people were appalled that I apparently toyed with the earth's axis in doing so. I just don't like messing with hydraulics to try to save a buck. I'd rather install a new or rebuilt piece and have it work rather than hope my polishing pistons and installing seals will last longer than a week.
July 21, 2009 5:58 a.m. ZOOMiata Dork

Are there pictures to share?

My dad had a 1976 Alfetta GT (also sometimes called a GTV 2000) -- same body style, with the four cylinder. I LOVED that car, but rust was a huge issue for that generation, and ours was really beyond saving.
July 21, 2009 9:37 a.m. dbgrubbs New Reader

If you like being frustrated then go ahead and rebuild the rear calipers. It's not worth it to me. Bleeding isn't really that hard if you pressure bleed it from the master. Just be sure to jack the rear end of the car up as high as possible. It'll help in getting the air out.

On your driveshaft, it depends on how it's taken apart. If it's taken apart only by the guibo's then yes, you have 3 chances to get it right. If the center yoke is actually taken apart (splined) then you're going to have to find someone that can high speed balance it. Remember that the driveshaft is turning at engine speed and not at the tranny output speed.
July 22, 2009 12:53 a.m. friedgreencorrado HalfDork

ZOOMiata wrote:

Are there pictures to share?

My dad had a 1976 Alfetta GT (also sometimes called a GTV 2000) -- same body style, with the four cylinder. I LOVED that car, but rust was a huge issue for that generation, and ours was really beyond saving.

Zoom, only pic at the moment is the one from the Craigslist ad (which was still up when I posted this).

I'm selling some "gifted" stock to buy the thing, sold it Monday am, takes three days for the sale to go final and another to get it wired into my account. He's OK with that...he really needs cash, but he also really wanted it to go to someone who'd do something with it.

Note to the group: when you go check out something, always take your best car. I took the black Corrado, and I could tell by the look on his face when I pulled into the driveway that he was stoked that his hopes for the car might be realized. He's willing to wait a week for the money, and it seems it's because I showed him a lil' evidence that I'd done something like this before.

More pics later, I'm going to document the rebuild as well as I can, but I think once it comes home, I'm gonna post it up as a "Readers' Ride" and do it over there to keep the board from getting too crowded.

BTW: My research leads me to believe that even though only the 4-cyl versions were called "Alfetta" in the US, out in the other 96% of the world the six was actually called the "Alfetta GTV6". Maybe I should get some Euro bumpers & badges?

http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/front_website/octane_interact/carspecs.php...
July 22, 2009 1:15 a.m. friedgreencorrado HalfDork

dbgrubbs wrote:

If you like being frustrated then go ahead and rebuild the rear calipers. It's not worth it to me. Bleeding isn't really that hard if you pressure bleed it from the master. Just be sure to jack the rear end of the car up as high as possible. It'll help in getting the air out.

On your driveshaft, it depends on how it's taken apart. If it's taken apart only by the guibo's then yes, you have 3 chances to get it right. If the center yoke is actually taken apart (splined) then you're going to have to find someone that can high speed balance it. Remember that the driveshaft is turning at engine speed and not at the tranny output speed.

Thanks for the heads-up, dbg. I know the center's disconnected because both halves of the driveshaft's in the trunk, and that's the only way he could get it in there. Oh well..I actuallly wanted a project, right?

And I agree with you on the calipers. It's not so much worrying about leaks after splitting them as much as it is about those manual tensioners. Maybe it's not quite as "grassroots" as putting them on the bench and doing them m'self, but I've seen rebuilts for sale online for just around $100 or so. It's my hope that I can take the rear off the ground, stuff new discs, calipers & CVs in there, and never have to go back into it again, except for pad changes. Do it once, do it right, and drive the berkeley out of it without that bit of doubt in my head. All the brakes are getting new hoses, too.
July 22, 2009 3:15 a.m. Travis_K HalfDork

New cv joints are still available too, but they arent cheap (about $180 each). BTW dont get the cv boots from IAP, the ones they sell dont really fit. Im not sure who has the best ones, I still have orignal ones on my car. lol

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