Trying to learn more about rallycross has been a little daunting. It seems like the only thing I can ever find is forum discussions, but you know how that is, conflicing info, questionable sources, anecdotes stated as fact, etc. The good info comes in small blurbs making it difficult to put the pieces together and make them stick. I know there are rally schools out there but that's not in the cards. What I'm looking for is in depth info on driving technique, and also resources on things like the science of the car, what makes the suspension work in different types of courses, proper driveline gearing, etc. I have found plenty for racing on asphalt, and also stage rally type stuff, but nothing focusing on rallycross. So are there any good books, or YouTube channels, or anything that could get me to a higher plain of enlightenment? Thanks
Considering the range of cars, suspension methodologies (soft with no sway bars, stiff with big sway bars, etc.) all do well on the same course, I'm not exactly sure there's any one right answer for most aspects of it.
Drive fast, don't hit cones.
Ride along with fast guys. If you can, convince them to say what they're doing out loud (brake, gas) as they drive. Try to feel what the car is doing so you can replicate it. Proper fast rallycross is waaaaaay outside the realm of what you do, or even can do safely, in a normal car in normal conditions. You need to feel it through your but and your eyes. Learn by doing.
It's very different from FWD to AWD and RWD as well, the RWD guys are insane, I really don't know how they manage to be fast. I can generate big smiles and spectator slides in RWD on the dirt, but that's when I'm at my slowest, the fastest times almost seem like I'm peddling. FWD you push until to feel the car start to push back, then you're going too hard and losing time. AWD when you feel a balanced slide/wash out or front end push you're going too hard and losing time.
Lines depend on the course and what's next after the current turn. You always want to setup your line to maximize the length of the longest straight putting power down as early as possible.
Most everything else is friction circle, friction circle, friction circle. (and how to use it to your advantage) whether it be LFB and other methods of weight transfer to keeping things tidy via reducing brake and or throttle input whenever increasing steering input.
gearheadmb said:
So are there any good books, or YouTube channels, or anything that could get me to a higher plain of enlightenment? Thanks
I'll say the answer is 'no'.
There was one article in GRM by Andrew Comrie-Picard about driving technique that really helped me 'flip the switch' with respect to left foot braking.
Taking an autocross Evo School (evoschool.com) was also a great way to get a lot of condensed timeframe feedback and improvement for my driving.
The car setup stuff is so variable that there are no absolutes in my opinion. Your car / region / sites / class / preferred driving style / budget make everyone else's opinion pretty much useless.
My suggestion is get a co-driver that is faster than you and keep doing events with them (including riding along) till you beat them.
cghstang said:
My suggestion is get a co-driver that is faster than you and keep doing events with them (including riding along) till you beat them.
Then they will quit and never come to a rallycross again.
Zing !
I'll have you know that I've been to two since then :)
I think the problem is the course variety makes it very hard to pin things down. There are probably some things that translate across all course designs and surface types, but there’s just so much more to it than paved surfaces. Rally has some surface variety, too, but the higher speeds, and the need to adapt for multiple surfaces in a single event makes it a bit more general.
I agree that a handbook of some sort would be nice, but anything in it would be pretty hotly debated.
My truisms:
-Keep the car as low as possible while preventing damage or getting stuck in ruts
-Ideally, once you are up to speed, the car should be setup to run in one gear. Courses tend to be short enough that shifting can kill time. Gearing and engine power/torque curve should be optimized for this.
-For FWD vehicles, there needs to be just enough stability to keep the rear end of the car in line in a straight line, and enough to bring it back in line after a turn. Otherwise, you want to be able to get the rear to rotate fast and easy.
-Edit: One more thing, other than the driver (and the durability of the car), having appropriate tires has the biggest effect.
but you know how that is, conflicing info, questionable sources, anecdotes stated as fact, etc.
Yank the e brake. Every corner. Lol.
Seriously though: don’t use the e brake and do use winter tires until you get good. Then plop down the cash for rally tires. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bgg5WWfMWzM
Stage rally setups don't work for rallycross. You will, for the most part, want to set up the car like an autocross car, just stay at or above stock height, and don't go crazy stiff with the springrates. Keep your sway bars, your doing way too much left and right to notice the .5" of suspension travel your losing. Get beefier shocks with better damping. Anything that holds you to the car better, like seats, harnesses and such are all good. Limited slip diffs in 2wd cars help a lot. Ride with the fast guys, they are fast for a reason. Also, slow down! It seems counterintuitive, but sometimes going slower and not demolishing cones allows you to rocket through the following section, because you can take a better line. Keep a couple different sets of tires, and watch the course conditions. Especially if the course dries out by lunch, you might want to swap to a different set if tires for the afternoon runs. (Provided your class allows it) reliability is king, if the car breaks, you aren't making runs and getting better. Also, get the fast guys to drive your car for a few runs. It will really show you the performance your leaving on the table. I'm no Rallycross expert, but that's what I've gained over two seasons worth of it.
Also, team o'niel has some excellent videos on YouTube explaining driving techniques and suspension science etc.
RyanW
New Reader
2/23/18 9:23 p.m.
Left foot braking and good tires is what brought me from mid pack to consistent first and second place finishes.
Gaunt596 said:
Stage rally setups don't work for rallycross. You will, for the most part, want to set up the car like an autocross car, just stay at or above stock height, and don't go crazy stiff with the springrates. Keep your sway bars, your doing way too much left and right to notice the .5" of suspension travel your losing. Get beefier shocks with better damping. Anything that holds you to the car better, like seats, harnesses and such are all good. Limited slip diffs in 2wd cars help a lot. Ride with the fast guys, they are fast for a reason. Also, slow down! It seems counterintuitive, but sometimes going slower and not demolishing cones allows you to rocket through the following section, because you can take a better line. Keep a couple different sets of tires, and watch the course conditions. Especially if the course dries out by lunch, you might want to swap to a different set if tires for the afternoon runs. (Provided your class allows it) reliability is king, if the car breaks, you aren't making runs and getting better. Also, get the fast guys to drive your car for a few runs. It will really show you the performance your leaving on the table. I'm no Rallycross expert, but that's what I've gained over two seasons worth of it.
Also, team o'niel has some excellent videos on YouTube explaining driving techniques and suspension science etc.
Depends on what you mean by "stage rally setups," which vary greatly.
My stage car won the strong DC region and the East Coast championships for rallycross (MR class) last year (while also running three stage rallies).. But admittedly my car is fairly lightly-built as stage cars go - not like I'm running JVABs or Reigers...just springs and Bilstein HDs.. Stage cars do have full cages, two seats, and a lot of extraneous weight that can hurt you in rallycross, of course. So a stage car CAN do well and win rallycross, but you're right that in general it is hard to find that balance.
I totally disagree on swaybars for rallycross, though. While of course it depends on your spring rates and what car you're driving, most of the fast guys I know run only a rear sway, or no sway at all. Front sways tend to promote understeer and hurt turn-in. Rear sways really depends on how much you want the car to rotate. I don't run any sways (the few times I've run with them hooked back up the car did not handle well), but I also have stiffer springs than stock.
Suspension setup is hard to make blanket statements about though. Different depending on type of car, drivetrain setup, tires being use, and type of course.
My #1 tenet is "drive quiet." If you are doing a crazy amount of steering/brake/throttle inputs, you are likely not going to be fast (unless your name is Pete). Watch the fastest rallycrossers and they're the ones that look like they're driving "boring," from both inside and outside the car, because there is no "drama." No huge dirt roostertails, no big powerslides, and no exaggerated car control. Unless your car is an absolute monster, the way to go fast is with calm, clean driving.
Jerry
UberDork
2/24/18 6:29 a.m.
I'll chime in, hoping after 6-7 years I'll finally learn something...
But my #1 advice was mentioned above. Ride along with a fast driver. As much as you can. And see if they'll drive YOUR car at some point. Riding shotgun while @cghstang flogged my MR2 for a run I was like "damn, I can definitely push it harder".
irish44j said:
Gaunt596 said:
Stage rally setups don't work for rallycross. You will, for the most part, want to set up the car like an autocross car, just stay at or above stock height, and don't go crazy stiff with the springrates. Keep your sway bars, your doing way too much left and right to notice the .5" of suspension travel your losing. Get beefier shocks with better damping. Anything that holds you to the car better, like seats, harnesses and such are all good. Limited slip diffs in 2wd cars help a lot. Ride with the fast guys, they are fast for a reason. Also, slow down! It seems counterintuitive, but sometimes going slower and not demolishing cones allows you to rocket through the following section, because you can take a better line. Keep a couple different sets of tires, and watch the course conditions. Especially if the course dries out by lunch, you might want to swap to a different set if tires for the afternoon runs. (Provided your class allows it) reliability is king, if the car breaks, you aren't making runs and getting better. Also, get the fast guys to drive your car for a few runs. It will really show you the performance your leaving on the table. I'm no Rallycross expert, but that's what I've gained over two seasons worth of it.
Also, team o'niel has some excellent videos on YouTube explaining driving techniques and suspension science etc.
Depends on what you mean by "stage rally setups," which vary greatly.
My stage car won the strong DC region and the East Coast championships for rallycross (MR class) last year (while also running three stage rallies).. But admittedly my car is fairly lightly-built as stage cars go - not like I'm running JVABs or Reigers...just springs and Bilstein HDs.. Stage cars do have full cages, two seats, and a lot of extraneous weight that can hurt you in rallycross, of course. So a stage car CAN do well and win rallycross, but you're right that in general it is hard to find that balance.
I totally disagree on swaybars for rallycross, though. While of course it depends on your spring rates and what car you're driving, most of the fast guys I know run only a rear sway, or no sway at all. Front sways tend to promote understeer and hurt turn-in. Rear sways really depends on how much you want the car to rotate. I don't run any sways (the few times I've run with them hooked back up the car did not handle well), but I also have stiffer springs than stock.
Suspension setup is hard to make blanket statements about though. Different depending on type of car, drivetrain setup, tires being use, and type of course.
I'm talking Hotbits, JVAB, DMS etc. I noticed all the valving in those is set up for more high speed stuff, and the low speed damping leaves something to be desired, so they probably aren't the best choice for rallycross. And, maybe RWD is the exception, but both of the FWD cars I've had are downright dangerous without the front sways, there's wayy to much body roll, and on the McPherson strut cars, the sway bar is a locating link in the front suspension. But, all of that is just my personal takeaway from it, I am definetly not a fast guy in any sense, even if the car dosent break first.
Gaunt596 said: the McPherson strut cars, the sway bar is a locating link in the front suspension.
This isn't correct, at least not on any car I've seen. On macstruts they are located by two bushings on the lower control arm at the bottom, and the strut bearing at the top. If there are cars that use the sway bar as a locating link, they are an exception, definitely not the rule.
gearheadmb said:
Gaunt596 said: the McPherson strut cars, the sway bar is a locating link in the front suspension.
This isn't correct, at least not on any car I've seen. On macstruts they are located by two bushings on the lower control arm at the bottom, and the strut bearing at the top. If there are cars that use the sway bar as a locating link, they are an exception, definitely not the rule.
The E21 had the control arms located with the sway bar. I thought it was a weird design.
Gaunt596 said:
irish44j said:
Gaunt596 said:
Stage rally setups don't work for rallycross. You will, for the most part, want to set up the car like an autocross car, just stay at or above stock height, and don't go crazy stiff with the springrates. Keep your sway bars, your doing way too much left and right to notice the .5" of suspension travel your losing. Get beefier shocks with better damping. Anything that holds you to the car better, like seats, harnesses and such are all good. Limited slip diffs in 2wd cars help a lot. Ride with the fast guys, they are fast for a reason. Also, slow down! It seems counterintuitive, but sometimes going slower and not demolishing cones allows you to rocket through the following section, because you can take a better line. Keep a couple different sets of tires, and watch the course conditions. Especially if the course dries out by lunch, you might want to swap to a different set if tires for the afternoon runs. (Provided your class allows it) reliability is king, if the car breaks, you aren't making runs and getting better. Also, get the fast guys to drive your car for a few runs. It will really show you the performance your leaving on the table. I'm no Rallycross expert, but that's what I've gained over two seasons worth of it.
Also, team o'niel has some excellent videos on YouTube explaining driving techniques and suspension science etc.
Depends on what you mean by "stage rally setups," which vary greatly.
My stage car won the strong DC region and the East Coast championships for rallycross (MR class) last year (while also running three stage rallies).. But admittedly my car is fairly lightly-built as stage cars go - not like I'm running JVABs or Reigers...just springs and Bilstein HDs.. Stage cars do have full cages, two seats, and a lot of extraneous weight that can hurt you in rallycross, of course. So a stage car CAN do well and win rallycross, but you're right that in general it is hard to find that balance.
I totally disagree on swaybars for rallycross, though. While of course it depends on your spring rates and what car you're driving, most of the fast guys I know run only a rear sway, or no sway at all. Front sways tend to promote understeer and hurt turn-in. Rear sways really depends on how much you want the car to rotate. I don't run any sways (the few times I've run with them hooked back up the car did not handle well), but I also have stiffer springs than stock.
Suspension setup is hard to make blanket statements about though. Different depending on type of car, drivetrain setup, tires being use, and type of course.
I'm talking Hotbits, JVAB, DMS etc. I noticed all the valving in those is set up for more high speed stuff, and the low speed damping leaves something to be desired, so they probably aren't the best choice for rallycross. And, maybe RWD is the exception, but both of the FWD cars I've had are downright dangerous without the front sways, there's wayy to much body roll, and on the McPherson strut cars, the sway bar is a locating link in the front suspension. But, all of that is just my personal takeaway from it, I am definetly not a fast guy in any sense, even if the car dosent break first.
yeah, point taken on the valving - that's likely true in most cases. Most big-dollar stage guys won't go rallycross with the unwashed masses anyhow, lol....just us bidget rallyists :)
Yeah, can't speak for FWD, mostly just speaking for AWD and RWD that I've driven.
gearheadmb said:
Gaunt596 said: the McPherson strut cars, the sway bar is a locating link in the front suspension.
This isn't correct, at least not on any car I've seen. On macstruts they are located by two bushings on the lower control arm at the bottom, and the strut bearing at the top. If there are cars that use the sway bar as a locating link, they are an exception, definitely not the rule.
ditto....even my e30 has MacStruts up front, and the swaybars aren't locating anything, nor of my WRX. On my old e21 comes to mind as one where the FSB is a locating member, and I think the front sway on my Porsche 924 also has some locating effect as well - but for sure this is the exception, not the rule.
FSB locates the control arms on my Saturn. Its a dumb design. We removed the FSB on the Sentra and I like it better that way.
On topic: Autocross a bunch. There are a lot more people to learn from and events are far more often. If you are a fast autocrosser, you will be a fast rallycrosser.
