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  Oct. 31, 2008 10:30 a.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

  Question came up on one of my other forums... I have found what seems to be a pretty fair-priced big brake kit, comparable in price to the STi rotor, wilwood caliper, custom bracket that our site was working on, plus it's already set to go, no waiting on getting enough people to get a bracket made.

  Now... the potential downsides:

  1) It uses caliper spacers. Is this necessarily a bad thing? Or is it just "bad" because it may look cheezy. 2) The kit uses redrilled Supra rotors. They're 324mm in diameter, and 30mm thick. Is this a bad thing, either?

  Any input is greatly appreciated.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 10:34 a.m. belteshazzar Dork

  are your brakes insufficient? I've always thought that was an area where you can spend a ton with no real advantage. Good pads, braided steel lines, and make sure everything else is healthy. That's all I'd do.

  There's exceptions out there, but imo they're rare.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 10:40 a.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

  belteshazzar wrote:

  are your brakes insufficient? I've always thought that was an area where you can spend a ton with no real advantage. Good pads, braided steel lines, and make sure everything else is healthy. That's all I'd do.

  There's exceptions out there, but imo they're rare.

  They're fine now.... i have brembo blanks, EBC yellows, stainless braided lines, and run Dot5.

  But the car also right now MIGHT put down 100whp. I'm looking at quadrupling that within the next 12 months.

  That being said, i STILL experienced brake fade running Deal's Gap this past spring, and everything was healthy. I'd like to avoid that.

  The question isn't really JUST for me, i do have other options, but the AllTrac guys, with a lot of them, their cars will overwhelm the stock brakes, even with good rotors, pads, and lines, because they weigh 3300lbs. I'm more like 2300lbs, so i'm basically asking for the community, and potentially me.

  The Deal's Gap meet is the first thing i run my car in every year, and i'll be at 300-310whp at that point in April, and i'd rather not find out the hard way that i'm still subject to fade. I'm not too fussed about spending $700 to get a brake setup superior to what i have. :D

  For the most part, i'm definitely inclined to agree with you, i'm just curious about caliper spacers and redrilled rotors for the moment.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 10:44 a.m. iceracer Reader

  Install some brake cooler ducts.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 10:49 a.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

  iceracer wrote:

  Install some brake cooler ducts.

  The car already has a system like that on it, stock. It's got a big grabber flap off to the side of the rotor. I'm not sure how much more effecient i could get it.

  I realize that I personally may have better options. I'm WAY lighter than the alltrac, and my brakes are virtually identical to theirs. But with the AllTracs, it's just a bandaid fix. They'll NEED a bigger setup, and right now, they're paying over $1500 per axle set for kits made by Rocketeer or 185performance. This option is more like $700-$800.

  Are caliper spacers and redrilled rotors bad things?

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  Oct. 31, 2008 10:50 a.m. belteshazzar Dork

  what are you doing for wheels and tires? Oversized? run something smaller/lighter so the brakes aren't working as hard.

  throw away the EBC's. I never miss an opportunity to tell someone to do that.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 10:52 a.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

  belteshazzar wrote:

  what are you doing for wheels and tires? Oversized? run something smaller/lighter so the brakes aren't working as hard.

  throw away the EBC's. I never miss an opportunity to tell someone to do that.

  It's not just for me....

  I'm running 2000-2005 Celica GT-S wheels. 16s w/ 215/45-16 Hankook Ventus RS2 Z212s. It's not a heavy setup.

  It will be heavier. I'm going to 17x8s and running 235 width tires at the least over the winter.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 11:07 a.m. Keith UltraDork

  93celicaGT2 wrote:

  iceracer wrote:

  Install some brake cooler ducts.

  The car already has a system like that on it, stock. It's got a big grabber flap off to the side of the rotor. I'm not sure how much more effecient i could get it.

  That's not a brake cooler duct. Not really. You need real ducting, coming from an inlet in the nose (nice cold high pressure air there) and aimed at the center of the rotor where the internal ducting can pull it through the rotor.

  Brake fade on the street? Yikes. I'd start with pads. I don't know the EBC Yellows, but that's not good.

  Redrilled rotors are a bad idea simply because it makes getting a replacement a pain in the butt. But that's the only real problem. Caliper spacers have been proven to work pretty well, and I had a set on the rear of my Targa car. However, you'll probably get a better, lighter caliper with a far greater range of available pads if you stick with the Wilwood solution up front.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 11:12 a.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

  Keith wrote:

  93celicaGT2 wrote:

  iceracer wrote:

  Install some brake cooler ducts.

  The car already has a system like that on it, stock. It's got a big grabber flap off to the side of the rotor. I'm not sure how much more effecient i could get it.

  That's not a brake cooler duct. Not really. You need real ducting, coming from an inlet in the nose (nice cold high pressure air there) and aimed at the center of the rotor where the internal ducting can pull it through the rotor.

  Brake fade on the street? Yikes. I'd start with pads. I don't know the EBC Yellows, but that's not good.

  Redrilled rotors are a bad idea simply because it makes getting a replacement a pain in the butt. But that's the only real problem. Caliper spacers have been proven to work pretty well, and I had a set on the rear of my Targa car. However, you'll probably get a better, lighter caliper with a far greater range of available pads if you stick with the Wilwood solution up front.

  Well.... "on the street" is subjective. The only time i've ever had this system fade is on the Tail of the Dragon at Deal's Gap. It's 318 hairpin turns in 11 miles, not really normal fare. :D

  This setup has survived track days just fine.

  The kit that i'm referring to has Wilwood Superlights, and uses spacers to properly work with the redrilled supra rotors apparently.

  These are the answers i was looking for. I much appreciate it!

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  Oct. 31, 2008 11:22 a.m. belteshazzar Dork

  I wouldn't go bigger than 16"'s but that's just me. In fact, I'm a huge fan of some light 15's.

  As sweet as it would look, you simply don't need 17's or something 235 width, not at your curb weight.

  A high end 225 width 15" would be ideal imo. work out some ducting. Pitch the ebc's Nevermind what the rest of the celica crowd does, you worry about your car.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 1:43 p.m. Keith UltraDork

  I've driven Deal's Gap. It's a tight piece of pavement, but you still shouldn't be getting brake fade.

  Any application of Wilwoods to a production car is going to involve an adapter of some sort. There's nothing at all to worry about.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 3:06 p.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

  Keith wrote:

  I've driven Deal's Gap. It's a tight piece of pavement, but you still shouldn't be getting brake fade.

  Any application of Wilwoods to a production car is going to involve an adapter of some sort. There's nothing at all to worry about.

  Yeah, i'm sure some of it is the nut behind the wheel, i'm no expert driver by any stretch of the imagination.

  Thanks again for your input, everyone!

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  Oct. 31, 2008 3:22 p.m. Salanis SuperDork

  If you can lock your wheels or engage ABS, you don't need extra braking power. You need a better tire choice.

  You braking force is limited by the traction of the tire as much as the brakes themselves.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 3:42 p.m. Apexcarver UltraDork

  Salanis wrote:

  If you can lock your wheels or engage ABS, you don't need extra braking power. You need a better tire choice.

  You braking force is limited by the traction of the tire as much as the brakes themselves.

  no, its thermal capacity that hes lacking...

  do REAL brake ducts, something like this

  that said, CAP THEM FOR DRIVING IN THE RAIN (just a plug that blocks the inlet will do)

  (do it AFTER you try out better pads, usually these are only needed for heavy track use)

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  Oct. 31, 2008 4:04 p.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

  Salanis wrote:

  If you can lock your wheels or engage ABS, you don't need extra braking power. You need a better tire choice.

  You braking force is limited by the traction of the tire as much as the brakes themselves.

  I don't have ABS, and i can't lock my wheels.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 4:07 p.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

  Apexcarver wrote:

  Salanis wrote:

  If you can lock your wheels or engage ABS, you don't need extra braking power. You need a better tire choice.

  You braking force is limited by the traction of the tire as much as the brakes themselves.

  no, its thermal capacity that hes lacking...

  do REAL brake ducts, something like this

  that said, CAP THEM FOR DRIVING IN THE RAIN (just a plug that blocks the inlet will do)

  (do it AFTER you try out better pads, usually these are only needed for heavy track use)

  I will still attempt this, i'm just not sure if i'll be able to properly test it before i have to run the Dragon. Can't hurt i guess.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 5:03 p.m. Keith UltraDork

  You can't lock your wheels and you get fade on the street. Dude, you don't need a brake upgrade. You just need brakes :)

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  Oct. 31, 2008 7:03 p.m. chknhwk Reader

  Two things I'm noticing here, one is you shouldn't really be driving hard enough on the street to get brake fade at all, much less a place like Tail of the Dragon.*
  Do you have any autox or track experience? That brings me to my second question, are you properly applying the brakes? Don't take this personally as I don't know your experience level but improper application of the brakes can most DEFINITELY lead to the issues you're having. You say you're running DOT5 fluid but what brand? What are the wet and dry boiling points? When is the last time you've bled them?

  *I don't want to seem like I'm preaching here but a lot of people get hurt all the time pushing at places likes that. Personally when I go to TOTD and others like it I might drive at 5/10's. Not trying to sound all snobbish, just trying to tell you to be careful.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 8:32 p.m. Jay HalfDork

  Did you know stock Celica brakes can do this?

  

  Granted it was my own fault for running a track day with a sticky caliper (I thought it had fixed itself!), but ya, that happening is generally bad.

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  Oct. 31, 2008 8:50 p.m. aussiesmg HalfDork

  wow, just wow ^

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  Oct. 31, 2008 9:38 p.m. ignorant UberDork

  is the fluid fresh?

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  Nov. 1, 2008 4:44 a.m. Mowog New Reader

  chknhwk wrote:

  Two things I'm noticing here, one is you shouldn't really be driving hard enough on the street to get brake fade at all, much less a place like Tail of the Dragon.*
  Do you have any autox or track experience? That brings me to my second question, are you properly applying the brakes? Don't take this personally as I don't know your experience level but improper application of the brakes can most DEFINITELY lead to the issues you're having. You say you're running DOT5 fluid but what brand? What are the wet and dry boiling points? When is the last time you've bled them?

  *I don't want to seem like I'm preaching here but a lot of people get hurt all the time pushing at places likes that. Personally when I go to TOTD and others like it I might drive at 5/10's. Not trying to sound all snobbish, just trying to tell you to be careful.

  Wow. Thanks, mom.

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  Nov. 1, 2008 4:54 a.m. Mowog New Reader

  Salanis wrote:

  If you can lock your wheels or engage ABS, you don't need extra braking power. You need a better tire choice.

  You braking force is limited by the traction of the tire as much as the brakes themselves.

  I hear this on every forum when this subject is brought up and it always amazes me. Almost any car on the street can lock it's brakes or engage ABS when hauling itself down from speed. Once or twice before things get hot. 90% of street cars have just enough capacity to get by.

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  Nov. 1, 2008 6:54 a.m. 44Dwarf Reader

  Spacers are not bad BUT heres the thing thay have to be made well and shiped well. Nice and flat and nice and smooth were the fluid crosses over do not sand them smooth you need to lap them with a circlular lap so you have no scratchs the go across the o rings. Offcourse hardwear to hold them must be at least grade 8 if not 10.9 stuff and the stock size may not be up to the bending loads put on the bolt now that there spread apart. But if the kit is out there try it but make sure to take your time and check it offten the 1st few weeks.

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  Nov. 1, 2008 11:36 a.m. neon4891 Dork

  Jay wrote:

  Did you know stock Celica brakes can do this?

  

  Granted it was my own fault for running a track day with a sticky caliper (I thought it had fixed itself!), but ya, that happening is generally bad.

  As Ms. Hilton would say, "Thats hott"

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