Keith Tanner said:
The way I look at it is: the ND2 will never be slower than the ND1, and if you get a chance to get over 51 mph (where the ND1 power starts to fall off and the dyno graphs separate), it'll be faster.
I've been trying to mentally find a way to dispute this, but I can't. For a normal person who never touches that last little hairy bit of RPM, the cars are the same, but if you need to be accelerating at the top of second...... and I didn't know the deviation was as low as 51. We hit that on our local courses.
The difference is a lot less obvious on the street, where you rarely go to redline before shifting. In day to day use, you’d mostly notice a change in the throttle response - it’s a bit smoother and has better tip-in on the new car. But faster only happens when you’re caning it, which is why a number of folks are discounting the power increase.
In reply to echoechoecho :
Yeah, the last time I lost a state championship was 1983 driving an MG Midget. Still a little bummed about that one. 
Congratulations to Robert Palmblad, who got his 2019 MX5 just three weeks earlier and got it dialed in and did a great job driving it at the Florida State Championships at the FIRM. We have been autocrossing our Boxster S for 15 years and I drove someone else's Boxster S before that, in various classes, so I have some experience on this topic. Our car runs PCA Showroom Stock, on stock size Bridgestone RE-71Rs, so if we wanted to campaign more seriously in SCCA, we could perhaps optimize the tire sizes, wheels, exhaust, shocks and sway bar. But the Porsche stuff is pretty darn good just the way they built it. I think the weight is the biggest issue in the MX5 vs Boxster S comparison. The specs may claim the Boxster S weighs 2855 pounds, but ours typically weighs in a little over 3000. I think the MX5 starts in the low 2300s, so you have at least 600 and probably close to 700 pounds difference. That is absolutely HUGE in autocross. The top 25 cars in CS at the Nationals were MX5s, except for a lone Boxster S in 14th. And the 2019 MX5 certainly looks like it could make all those earlier ones obsolete.
Javelin said:
In reply to spacecadet :
That's the beauty of Porsche, nearly everything is available stand-alone "ala cart", including the wider wheels, and can be proved. A cheap Porsche race car can't be more expensive than a CAM car, can it?!?
Ok, I know the Sport Chrono package is a must have in the newer 987 cars for BS and i don't know a ton about the 986.
dps214
New Reader
11/20/18 9:47 a.m.
The weight is the biggest issue. The extra wheel and tire width sounds nice, but by my quick math there's still more weight/mm of tire width at both ends of the boxster, particularly the front. Which doesn't pair well with the .5* max camber up front, unless they added more adjustability to the later 986s. My 2.5L 986 with 9" wheels and 245s all around drives like an underpowered FWD car on an autocross course. Of course, less worn out tires would probably help the front end grip on turn in, and S power would almost definitely help it rotate and accelerate off the corner, but I just don't see one being able to keep up with a well prepped and well driven ND2. Maybe an ND1 if it has to spend a lot of time going between second and third gears. And the boxster is geared too long to begin with, stuffing wide tires on the rear will likely also increase tire diameter and make that worse.
dps214 said:
The weight is the biggest issue. The extra wheel and tire width sounds nice, but by my quick math there's still more weight/mm of tire width at both ends of the boxster, particularly the front. Which doesn't pair well with the .5* max camber up front, unless they added more adjustability to the later 986s. My 2.5L 986 with 9" wheels and 245s all around drives like an underpowered FWD car on an autocross course.
I've been waiting for someone who had better knowledge, I thought i had been told they were super camber limited. -0.5 max and scrubbing tires into an oblivion..... and not cheap tires either...
In reply to spacecadet :
Sport Chrono wasn't invented yet for the 986.1 cars.
In reply to Danny Shields :
Thank you for chiming in! I'm no Nationals-level driver, but I'd like to not be DFL at the next Tour, so that's why I'm looking at a car change. My current car is a 96 SVT Cobra hit with the aftermarket parts stick too many times running CAM-C. I barely made minimum weight (3261 vs 3250) at the Packwood ProSolo, so I was running mid-pack times until it got hot on the last day and my Falken RT615K+s stopped working as well as my competitor's RE71R's. It's a fun car but it's not classed well and it's too modified to do anything else with. I'm looking at turning it into an SCCA Time Trials car and building a dedicated AX car, hence the 986S. I like having not the "right" car, but I also don't want to be stupid. Maybe I should go back to looking at the Cobalt SS/SC in GS?
Pete Gossett said:
Javelin said:
In reply to spacecadet :
A cheap Porsche race car can't be more expensive than a CAM car, can it?!?
They don’t call it the P-tax for nothing. I think your tire budget may be slightly lower than with your Cobra, but I don’t see this being a cost-saving move.
Oh, I know. I campaigned a 944 in PCA AX for 2 seasons. The Cobra runs through 305/35/17's at an alarming rate and being a CAM car spent most of the year in various states of broken including 2 differentials and losing a wheel. Trying to make a fat fox-body handle in autocross is like hitting yourself in the face with a hammer.
Javelin said:
Pete Gossett said:
Javelin said:
In reply to spacecadet :
A cheap Porsche race car can't be more expensive than a CAM car, can it?!?
They don’t call it the P-tax for nothing. I think your tire budget may be slightly lower than with your Cobra, but I don’t see this being a cost-saving move.
Oh, I know. I campaigned a 944 in PCA AX for 2 seasons. The Cobra runs through 305/35/17's at an alarming rate and being a CAM car spent most of the year in various states of broken including 2 differentials and losing a wheel. Trying to make a fat fox-body handle in autocross is like hitting yourself in the face with a hammer.
Oh I get all that - it’s precicesly why I sold the Vette & replaced it with an STS Miata! ;-) I’m just doubtful the Boxter will save you much, if any, money long-term.
Oh man, the local car I'm looking at is a great one to try with. Finnish built car with only 2 options, cruise control and a wind deflector. It has the base 6-speaker stereo with no sub, amp, or disc changer even. IMS bearing done at a Porsche dealership along with new flywheel, clutch, and water pump. Low-mileage transaxle just installed, too. Has the actual M413 18x7.5/18x9 wheels and is otherwise stone-cold stock. For less than $8K...
Javelin said:
Oh man, the local car I'm looking at is a great one to try with. Finnish built car with only 2 options, cruise control and a wind deflector. It has the base 6-speaker stereo with no sub, amp, or disc changer even. IMS bearing done at a Porsche dealership along with new flywheel, clutch, and water pump. Low-mileage transaxle just installed, too. Has the actual M413 18x7.5/18x9 wheels and is otherwise stone-cold stock. For less than $8K...
You should give that a try. Luckily, all of the development you're trying to do on the Cobra is done on the Porsche. Tires. Drive fast.
In reply to Javelin :
That sounds like a really good deal. $8k for an S is cheap and add in the maintenance already done and it seems like a steal. What kind of mileage on it though?
In reply to Javelin :
That sounds like a really good deal on a great car. And you know what they say, "Porsche. There is no substitute."
This car sounds like a great car overall for everything except autox.
If you really want to get into a affordable upfront and affordable consumables autox car, go buy an STS civic/CRX that's already built. built STS cars for sale fall under your budget and tires are much more affordable than the mustang or the Porsche.
One other question, what tire are you running in a 305/35R17 on the cobra?
In reply to spacecadet :
STS cars, good ones anyway, suck at being cars. A street class car will be good at being a car at the end of the weekends especially these Porsches that are good enough from the factory that they don't even need a shock upgrade.
I just checked some prices for consumables on a 2004 Boxster S from Rock Auto. Some examples: Rear brake disc $35, front brake disc $51, clutch kit $293. We broke our trans after many, many high rpm clutch dumps on R comps and found a good used one for $800 and it took 3 hours to swap out. After years of track days and autocrossing, I bought new brake discs/pads and a clutch disc to get ready for Nationals but when I actually got in there to swap the parts, it turned out I didn't need them because everything looked perfect. Our local road course is notoriously hard on brakes and every weekend, somebody has to be towed home because they overheated and destroyed their brakes, but that's never happened to any of the Boxsters or Caymans that run around with the local Porsche Club or Sports Car Club track days. They do use two sets of rear tires for every front set of tires, but overall, tire wear is normal for a car that is autocrossed or tracked.
mazdeuce - Seth said:
In reply to spacecadet :
STS cars, good ones anyway, suck at being cars. A street class car will be good at being a car at the end of the weekends especially these Porsches that are good enough from the factory that they don't even need a shock upgrade.
STS cars do suck at being real cars, but if Javelin owns the Mazda 3 still then it doesn't matter.
I'm just looking at this thinking Javelin is going to be disappointed with the competitiveness of this car. I don't think it will hang with ND's...
But i get the feeling i'm the crazy one in this thread since everyone else thinks it's a great idea...
In reply to spacecadet :
I think you're right. You're right that asking yourself "can I be a national level driver?" is answered cheapest with an STS car. Without new blood though, the class is dying.
I think you're right that a Boxter isn't likely to trophy is CS at nationals. Especially with the ND2.
I think most of us are cheering this on because we think that regionally the car can be competitive and even up to the tour events. You're handicapping yourself, but an ND2 is $26k, and this Boxter is $8k. The question is whether it's worth it to trade somewhere between a second and a second and a half on a 70 second course for $18k. It's not like the Boxter sucks, it's a great car, it's just a hair slower currently though that gap may widen with the ND2. We also think that it's a much much much easier button than chasing the ever increasing and awesome insanity that is going fast in CAM.
mazdeuce - Seth said:
In reply to spacecadet :
I think you're right. You're right that asking yourself "can I be a national level driver?" is answered cheapest with an STS car. Without new blood though, the class is dying.
I think you're right that a Boxter isn't likely to trophy is CS at nationals. Especially with the ND2.
I think most of us are cheering this on because we think that regionally the car can be competitive and even up to the tour events. You're handicapping yourself, but an ND2 is $26k, and this Boxter is $8k. The question is whether it's worth it to trade somewhere between a second and a second and a half on a 70 second course for $18k. It's not like the Boxter sucks, it's a great car, it's just a hair slower currently though that gap may widen with the ND2. We also think that it's a much much much easier button than chasing the ever increasing and awesome insanity that is going fast in CAM.
I'd go find and talk to Jarvie if it was me before spending money on the Boxster with any ambitions to Autox it competitively.
I get that this is supposed to be the cheaper answer than the CAM mustang.
But between E Street and STS there are 2 classes where you can have fun on a budget. Racing in any other class is expensive. G Street or H street are the next closest in affordability but both are more expensive than E street or STS.
In reply to spacecadet :
Chuck is a close friend and I have talked with him extensively. His car is a completely factory stock one that is setup for PCA autocross, so only the tires are changed and they are the factory size. He also runs a hardtop.
Javelin said:
In reply to spacecadet :
Chuck is a close friend and I have talked with him extensively. His car is a completely factory stock one that is setup for PCA autocross, so only the tires are changed and they are the factory size. He also runs a hardtop.
OK, good to know you've got both eyes wide open. I still don't see where this is a good idea.
I went digging and found the 2009 Nationals results and i see that Mark was 1-2 seconds out of trophies. I understand then why he feels the car is competitive. I think that the past 2 years have shown the ND1&2 are faster than the s2000, but I also see that there's enough reasons for me to just soften my tune.
so I guess buy some 18" RE71's and have fun man! We'll see what happens, and this definitely sounds like a better idea than the CAM car.
In reply to spacecadet :
We're going to have so much fun being trapped in a car together for a week. 
In the classes you mentioned, STS and ES, what cars are good to own? A good STS car sucks as a car. Ya ya, second car and all that, but they suck balls to even drive to an event and if we're trailering then it's time to cut the windshield off something. ES is only Miatas or MR2's both of various sorts. My argument is that the Boxter has a whole lot less suck that the other options and is cheaper than an ND. Unless life is horrible (and it sometimes is) then increased tire cost is the only financial downside to the Boxter. I'm not sure he's going to trophy, but I argue that it's worth a try given the other options, and when he's not autocrossing the car will be a GOOD second car as it's functionally a stock Boxter.
Admittedly I do have a soft spot for Boxter/Cayman as I looooove the front end feel of the car. I'd rather be a smidge slower in a car that I love than a smidge faster in something I don't. This might be why I can never be motivated enough to put in the effort to find those last two seconds.
mazdeuce - Seth said:
In reply to spacecadet :
We're going to have so much fun being trapped in a car together for a week.
In the classes you mentioned, STS and ES, what cars are good to own? A good STS car sucks as a car. Ya ya, second car and all that, but they suck balls to even drive to an event and if we're trailering then it's time to cut the windshield off something. ES is only Miatas or MR2's both of various sorts. My argument is that the Boxter has a whole lot less suck that the other options and is cheaper than an ND. Unless life is horrible (and it sometimes is) then increased tire cost is the only financial downside to the Boxter. I'm not sure he's going to trophy, but I argue that it's worth a try given the other options, and when he's not autocrossing the car will be a GOOD second car as it's functionally a stock Boxter.
Admittedly I do have a soft spot for Boxter/Cayman as I looooove the front end feel of the car. I'd rather be a smidge slower in a car that I love than a smidge faster in something I don't. This might be why I can never be motivated enough to put in the effort to find those last two seconds.
STS cars are not that bad to drive to local events. the 2 hours drive to college station in the STS EF was a breeze. I also love that you blow off the 2 car thing mr I have 6 different cars...
The primary difference between our thinking is that you don't care about the last 2 seconds and I've always cared.
I've also made great and terrible purchase decisions with autox cars and if i could go back to 2016 with the Mazda 6 and the EF I'd do it without question. z
The 2+ car system is the best one.
