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wrongwheeldrive
wrongwheeldrive
7/20/12 2:57 p.m.

Hello all, long time lurker and first time poster!

My google ninja skills failed me, so I figured you guys would maybe be willing to answer my question.

Is there any way to get some negative camber in the front of my 90 civic sedan while staying legal for stock class per SCCA rules?

I picked up some control arm anchor bolts during a rockauto wholesaler closeout sale, but can't for the life of me find out if this is a "factory-authorized" repair method. I don't want to install these if they are illegal.

In the event that these are not allowed, are there any other stock class legal solutions?

pic of part in question:

Vigo
Vigo SuperDork
7/20/12 3:53 p.m.

A 90 is an ef?

Im not familiar with the part in question so i couldnt say, but i would err on the side of whatever makes you like the car more vs what is class legal. I honestly dont care much about class legality as im not a very competitive person and am a little too laid back to do much bitching about other people's camber bolts. Your local group may be full of a bunch of uptight jerks who would take being beat by a 90 civic badly and challenge your class legality and then yell at their wives and kids when they get home, but if your club ISNT full of jerks i would just do what you want and have fun.

wrongwheeldrive
wrongwheeldrive New Reader
7/20/12 4:18 p.m.

88-91 is an EF.

I like the car any which way it is, they are just so much fun! But I am a competitive person, and like winning too . Everyone in the regions I run in are pretty cool, even when they do get beat by my E36 M3-box . Because of that I wouldn't want to cheat them and run an illegal mod, I like to play fair.

I'm pretty much prepped to the limit of the class as-is, but want the last bit to try and catch the mini coopers. Those things are fast and I need all the help I can get!

JohnyHachi6
JohnyHachi6 Reader
7/20/12 4:32 p.m.

It's not legal to change (ie: move) suspension mounting points in stock class unless it was adjustable from the factory and you adjust it within a range specified by a factory service manual.

JohnyHachi6
JohnyHachi6 Reader
7/20/12 4:35 p.m.

I can't really remember from my CRX days, but do the lower control arms mount via eccentric bolts? If so, those can be adjusted (move out the lower control arms) to give you more negative camber. Off the top of my head I want to say they didn't come like that from the factory, but I'm not sure.

JohnyHachi6
JohnyHachi6 Reader
7/20/12 4:42 p.m.

Basically, the lower control arms should look like this (I think):

If the inboard bolts (on the left in this image) look like the picture below, then they are adjustable, if it's a regular bolt, then no such luck.

You are allowed to "take advantage of inherent manufacturing tolerances", however, so if you really want to be as competitive as possible you should unbolt the upper control arm mounts, push them in as far as possible and bolt them down again. You might pick up a few tenths of a degree of camber from this and it's legal.

JohnyHachi6
JohnyHachi6 Reader
7/20/12 4:47 p.m.

Another quick piece of advice, if you are really aiming to be competitive in stock class, you'll need to run slicks (Hoosier A6s or similar), which is pretty pricey. So, if you're looking to be competitive, it might be cheaper to do it in a street class, where there's a treadwear restriction on the tires (and thus they are cheaper).

I'm all for stock-class (I race an RX-8 in C-stock), but just be aware of the tire costs involved with putting down the quick times.

wrongwheeldrive
wrongwheeldrive New Reader
7/20/12 5:01 p.m.

In reply to JohnyHachi6:

I'm well aware of tire costs, those 275 hoosiers on our SMF car are expensive as hell when we aren't winning them!

I've got some used 215 v710's on my 5 inch rims and koni shocks along with a big honkin rear sway, so my car is as close to competitive as a 90 civic DX will ever be. This is just my winter beater/fun car, normally my father and I compete in SMF with our CRX.

When I'm away at school, I only have my civic but like to be competitive in it nonetheless.

oldsaw
oldsaw PowerDork
7/20/12 5:13 p.m.
wrongwheeldrive wrote: 88-91 is an EF. I like the car any which way it is, they are just so much fun! But I am a competitive person, and like winning too . Everyone in the regions I run in are pretty cool, even when they do get beat by my E36 M3-box . Because of that I wouldn't want to cheat them and run an illegal mod, I like to play fair. I'm pretty much prepped to the limit of the class as-is, but want the last bit to try and catch the mini coopers. Those things are fast and I need all the help I can get!

If you're trying to catch Mini's with an Si, you've got a very tough task to accomplish. Is anyone, anywhere successfully competing in HS with an EF?

If you're driving a Dx, you might be better off trying to catch rainbows instead of trophies. And I'm not to be a snarky a-hole on this; I have a '90 Dx hatch and the car wouldn't stand a chance against reasonably driven Mini's or Mazda 3's.

I would think that if you replace non-adjustable parts with adjustable ones, you're crossing a legality line. The good news is that EF's are less camber-challenged than the Mini's or the 3's. Replace the suspension bushing with factory rubber bits, buy some killer Koni's and look into the new rule that allows adding a rear bar.

Oh, and as mentioned, look into using the dreaded r-comps. I know people who have squeezed 205-series Hoosiers and stock 5" rims.

wrongwheeldrive
wrongwheeldrive New Reader
7/20/12 6:02 p.m.

If you look one comment up, you will see I already have slicks, shocks, and a sway(as well as brand new bushings all around)

I'm not trying to grab national championships here, I have the SMF car for that. I'm just trying to have fun at the regional level.

In the events I've ran so far, I have come within hundreths of a second off the mini who runs local with me a couple of times already, and he is a decent driver. While its not the car for the class(and I know this, but I got the sedan for $300 so I can't complain), it is competitive enough at local events when driven well. Heck, I've pax'd as high as 8th overall on street tires running the road tire class.

I'm just looking for a solution to legally grab a little bit more of an aggressive alignment.

Type Q
Type Q Dork
7/20/12 6:41 p.m.
wrongwheeldrive wrote: Hello all, long time lurker and first time poster! My google ninja skills failed me, so I figured you guys would maybe be willing to answer my question. Is there any way to get some negative camber in the front of my 90 civic sedan while staying legal for stock class per SCCA rules? I picked up some control arm anchor bolts during a rockauto wholesaler closeout sale, but can't for the life of me find out if this is a "factory-authorized" repair method. I don't want to install these if they are illegal. In the event that these are not allowed, are there any other stock class legal solutions? pic of part in question:

Those are most definitely not a factory authorized repair part and are illegal in Stock class. They are legal for ST(fill in the blank) and are part of many "Spec Civic" builds.

wrongwheeldrive
wrongwheeldrive New Reader
7/20/12 6:59 p.m.
Type Q wrote: Those are most definitely not a factory authorized repair part and are illegal in Stock class. They are legal for ST(fill in the blank) and are part of many "Spec Civic" builds.

Thank you! All I needed to hear.

Do you happen to know of any stock-legal ways to squeeze some camber out?

Thanks.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin SuperDork
7/20/12 9:17 p.m.
wrongwheeldrive wrote: Do you happen to know of any stock-legal ways to squeeze some camber out?

Crank the rebound to infinity? It should jack the car down to the bumpstops and your suspension geometry should give you a few degrees of camber as a result.

wrongwheeldrive
wrongwheeldrive New Reader
7/20/12 9:35 p.m.

Unfortunately my koni's are only single adjustable :(

I asked the same question over at SCCAforums, and it appears that the only legal solution would be to degas my shocks to lower the car a bit and get some extra camber, but that is a solution with more drawbacks than benefits, at least from what I've read.

Looks like I will just have to rely on driving my POS even faster!

oldsaw
oldsaw PowerDork
7/20/12 9:51 p.m.
wrongwheeldrive wrote: If you look one comment up, you will see I already have slicks, shocks, and a sway(as well as brand new bushings all around)

You entered that post as I was typing my response.

<I'm not trying to grab national championships here, I have the SMF car for that. I'm just trying to have fun at the regional level.

Seems like you're doing that already.

In the events I've ran so far, I have come within hundreths of a second off the mini who runs local with me a couple of times already, and he is a decent driver. While its not the car for the class(and I know this, but I got the sedan for $300 so I can't complain), it is competitive enough at local events when driven well. Heck, I've pax'd as high as 8th overall on street tires running the road tire class.

Hoosiers are faster than Kumho's by at least a few tenths.

I'm just looking for a solution to legally grab a little bit more of an aggressive alignment.

You could also start playing with the front and rear toe settings. Might make on-course driving faster but the daily grind could be a bit more unpredictable.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin SuperDork
7/20/12 9:59 p.m.
wrongwheeldrive wrote: Unfortunately my koni's are only single adjustable :( I asked the same question over at SCCAforums, and it appears that the only legal solution would be to degas my shocks to lower the car a bit and get some extra camber, but that is a solution with more drawbacks than benefits, at least from what I've read. Looks like I will just have to rely on driving my POS even faster!

As far as I know, single adjustable = rebound only. Crank it all the way up and see what happens.

wrongwheeldrive
wrongwheeldrive New Reader
7/20/12 10:09 p.m.

In reply to oldsaw:

all valid points.

I guess I should say I am having fun, I just want every bit of help I can get to catch those minis, damn that competitive spirit in me! It's an uphill battle, but I personally love rooting for an underdog

Hoosiers are way better than these kuhmos, but I got these kuhmos for free so I can't complain! Being a college student keeps me from blowing big bucks on ho-ho's for an "uncompetitive" car. Plus a set of sticker hoosiers is almost worth more than my total investment in this car!

I've been putting off adding toe for the sake of tire wear on the street, its my daily driver after all. Maybe I'll just do it anyways

Oh and don't worry, I didn't take you as a snarky a-hole in your first post :)

wrongwheeldrive
wrongwheeldrive New Reader
7/20/12 10:12 p.m.

In reply to ProDarwin:

I usually run full stiff in the rear, but I keep it close to full soft up front because any stiffer and traction out of the turns seems to be much less. I tried going all the way up in all 4 corners and it made the car very difficult to drive fast. No noticeable change in ride height either, perhaps when I have spare time I will use my father's camber gauge and see if there is a measurable difference between firm and soft. For science!

ProDarwin
ProDarwin SuperDork
7/20/12 10:34 p.m.
wrongwheeldrive wrote: In reply to ProDarwin: I usually run full stiff in the rear, but I keep it close to full soft up front because any stiffer and traction out of the turns seems to be much less. I tried going all the way up in all 4 corners and it made the car very difficult to drive fast. No noticeable change in ride height either, perhaps when I have spare time I will use my father's camber gauge and see if there is a measurable difference between firm and soft. For science!

Hmm. I don't know much about tuning in stock class, I just know rebound to keep the car as low as possible and gain camber is a method often used by DWB cars. I've heard stories of GS CRXs coming back into grid 2" lower than when they left :) But I imagine those cars are very custom valved shocks, and I don't know if OTS Koni would do that at all.

Vigo
Vigo SuperDork
7/20/12 11:45 p.m.

I have some single adjustable konis cranked all the way up, and when you push down on a corner it is noticeably slow to come back up but still returns to ride height within 2 seconds, i would say.

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave MegaDork
7/21/12 10:18 a.m.

No legal way to get camber in a stock class EF.

The most useful tuning too you have is rear toe. I know someone who ran 1" of toe out on one. Said it wouldn't drive straight to save it's life, but it turned REALLY well. The next best tool at your disposal is the new allowance for a rear sway bar. Put an ST 22mm bar on there and start having fun.

iceracer
iceracer UltraDork
7/21/12 4:36 p.m.

Loosen, push/pull/ tighten.

wrongwheeldrive
wrongwheeldrive New Reader
7/21/12 8:08 p.m.

In reply to DILYSI Dave:

Dave, I have a 24mm bar out back, I played around with it today at full stiff and it is a drift machine! For street driving reasons I won't be adding an inch of toe anytime soon, maybe I'll dial in a teenth or an eight of an inch

Next upgrade for me is brake pads, the no-name pads that came with the car are still up front, they just weren't sufficient enough with the added speed and traction of my new(used slicks)

DILYSI Dave
DILYSI Dave MegaDork
7/21/12 8:52 p.m.

Go to a decent alignment shop. Tip the guy an extra $20 to mark 0 and 1/2" out on each side with a paint marker, stamp, or something. Now, when you get to the site and the car is in the air getting the R-comps mounted, crawl under there with a 14mm ratchet and move it to the toe out position. When you put your streets back on at the end of the day, move it back to 0.

wrongwheeldrive
wrongwheeldrive New Reader
7/21/12 9:00 p.m.
DILYSI Dave wrote: Go to a decent alignment shop. Tip the guy an extra $20 to mark 0 and 1/2" out on each side with a paint marker, stamp, or something. Now, when you get to the site and the car is in the air getting the R-comps mounted, crawl under there with a 14mm ratchet and move it to the toe out position. When you put your streets back on at the end of the day, move it back to 0.

Good idea Dave! I have everything I need to do an alignment right in my garage, so I think I will do this when I get some free time. Too much to do right now, I have to get ready for the prosolo in Toledo!

PS I had a good time getting my ass handed to me by you last year at Nat's, I was in the blue CRX. Your SMF car is so awesome!

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