Autocrossing an FWD car, questions: Grassroots Motorsports forum: Grassroots Motorsports Magazine

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Jan. 6, 2009 2:28 p.m. 1966stang None

Quick intro-I used to post here as 66stang, but when I went to log back in I couldn't access my account, so I re-registerd as 1966stang.

Here goes the Story-I haven't been posting because I redicovered the Miata (bought a 2002 with 45K on it 9 months ago) and also discovered autocrossing.

I have been autocrossing the Miata and loving it. Here is my issue-I've ridden in front wheel drive cars ranging from a Cooper S to a Civic SI during autocross runs and they all seem to understeer really badly. I'm going to need to buy an OTM (other than Miata) next year sometime, and I am thinking Cobalt SS/TC, VW GTI, and Cooper S. (yeah, I know, flame me for all three.)

Are there better FWD cars for autocross and daily driver use? The only other RWD small car I know of is a one series BMW and that is out of my price range. I need a small car because my wife will be driving it and we park frequently in tight places. And I need 4 seats for my family.

So, should I look for something like an E36 series BMW and just "live with it" or can understeer be tamed?

Bottom line, I love the idea of the GTI, Cobalt, or Mini as a daily but want to autocross it also. Ideas?

Chris
Jan. 6, 2009 2:37 p.m. bequietanddrive New Reader

I don't think you;re ever going to be able to get the exact control of a RWD car from a FWD car.

But all of that understeer can definitely be tuned out, from personal experience. I autocross a front wheel driver but the car is very neutral with a tad bit of oversteer at time. I had to choose certain aftermarket pieces (namely shocks and a large rear sway bar) to accomplish it but you can definitely neutral out a front wheel drive car.

Another big thing though is throttle control. You can't go blazing into a corner and expect everything to be great, because you WILL understeer. This is a big part of controlling it, having proper throttle control. You can definitely learn to properly drive a FWD car.
Jan. 6, 2009 2:39 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

Understeer can and should be tamed, but when push comes to shove, the car will understeer if you give it too much throttle on corner exit (or too early)

The fun of FWD is that you toss it into a corner MUCH faster than you expect...let the car oversteer on corner entry and then catch it with the throttle to even it out. So..in any given corner, you start with oversteer, followed by neutral balance and a touch of understeer on corner exit.

And really, a properly prepared MCS is just about the best handling FWD car there is, aside from a 20 year old Honda.
Jan. 6, 2009 2:43 p.m. 93celicaGT2 Reader

FWD has a nifty "auto-correcting" property when setup correctly.

My FWD car oversteers into corners to the point that if i REALLY screw up, it'll swing sideways enough to scrub off my speed, then drag itself out on a mostly-correct line. It's good stuff.

Is it the fastest way to go? Nope. But it's easy, it's fun, and it's extremely forgiving.

But as people have said, it's pretty easy to correct. The last time i drove my car in anger, i ONLY had springs lowering it almost 2", and custom strut tower braces. Still stock swaybars.
Jan. 6, 2009 2:44 p.m. Chris_V SuperDork

Interestingly, you tend to drive a FWD car in autocross the same way as a rear engine Porsche...

Also learn left foot braking to pull the rear around. Can work excellent. Done right, you can maintain the ragged edge of oversteer even under power.
Jan. 6, 2009 3:14 p.m. Travis_K Reader

I havent driven that many rwd cars, but I would think of them as being alot more understeer prone than fwd.
Jan. 6, 2009 3:18 p.m. Xceler8x HalfDork

Travis_K wrote:

I havent driven that many rwd cars, but I would think of them as being alot more understeer prone than fwd.

It depends on the power level of the car. A high hp RWD car can boot the rear tires out at will.
Jan. 6, 2009 4:00 p.m. poopshovel Dork

bigangrybear said:
And really, a properly prepared MCS is just about the best handling FWD car there is, aside from a 20 year old Honda.

THANK you.
Jan. 6, 2009 4:07 p.m. Travis_K Reader

Hmm yea, the only rwd cars i have driven were a couple of old bmws, and my milano.
Jan. 6, 2009 4:09 p.m. Bobzilla Reader

OK, let me settle this. . . . . I sent the last 2 years auto-x'ing a 2800lb, 135hp fwd Hyundai. the car went fron an understeering pig, to a tail happy critter. Can it hang with the Si's? Hell no, but it did ok. If I can turn a nose heavy pig into a tail happy pig, than anyone can.
Jan. 6, 2009 7:29 p.m. admc58 New Reader

Cooper S will hold its value the best over time. With a proper AutoX shock setup and base front sway bar it will handle very well & could even be Nationally competitive...You will need to be careful about trailing throttle oversteer with a full on AutoX setup on the street...Think Porsche 930 snap oversteer.

The other two have more problem with correcting understeer and still staying in competitive "Stock" classes. The soft springs of the current VW platforms tend to let the front end bottom out on corner entry and you get a terminal push. The Cobalts I have driven feel about the same on corner entry. The VWs feel the best mid corner to exit as long as you don't overcook corner entry.

The R32 VW would be the exception, Fast, good handling & stock class competitive with more rear seat room than the Cooper S. How large are the rear seat passengers???
Jan. 7, 2009 9:27 a.m. 1966stang New Reader

Thanks for the replies, guys. The MINI S is my #1 Choice of the three...I just want to hear that some of the understeer can be tamed out of it. I doubt I'll ever be that fast (my Miata runs in C Stock in both SCCA and Buckeye Miata Club racing, which stands for Chris, Slow) but I'm having a blast. The Miata will continue to be the primary Auto-X car, however.

I'm going to read The Secrets of Solo Racing next, and then maybe take in a drivers school.

Chris
Jan. 7, 2009 10:17 a.m. iceracer Reader

Read what Per said.
It also depends on what class you intend to run as to what you can do to the car.
Jan. 7, 2009 10:41 a.m. 1966stang New Reader

Since the driver (me) is still a newbie, I want to keep running in the "stock" classes. IIRC SCCA won't let you change the rear sway bar for a stock class. This would be the main way to tune out understeer in an FWD car, right?

I feel mostly comfortable with oversteer for some reason when I auto-cross. I am even thinking of running comp-style DOT tires on the front of my Miata and street tires on the rear. Would something like this work for a MINI?

Chris
Jan. 7, 2009 12:12 p.m. steverife New Reader

As Per said, most understeer is a result of asking too much of the front tires. Learn these limits, put good tires on the car, and learn to tweak alignment and air pressures. Minimize mistakes behind the wheel and you'll minimize understeer.

I've autocrossed RWD, AWD, and FWD. I enjoy them all, but I think I'm a FWD guy. I love charging through a run, trying to hang on without lifting.
Jan. 7, 2009 12:47 p.m. poopshovel Dork

Since the driver (me) is still a newbie, I want to keep running in the "stock" classes. IIRC SCCA won't let you change the rear sway bar for a stock class. This would be the main way to tune out understeer in an FWD car, right?

Tire pressures, shocks, and alignment go a long way toward reducing understeer in most FWD cars as well. I would ASSume the same would be true for a MINI. Would an STS Civic be too harsh for your street car?