MrJoshua wrote: I think the BMW vs Subie issue is that the BMW can be had in RWD only and the Subie cannot. If the Subie had a RWD only version it would probably be a slightly better track toy.
Bingo.
The AWD BMW's are awesome cars - they are RWD biased so they handle fantastically - but - they pay a substantial weight and driveline loss penalty and have the same power so... same/same pass on the extra diff and transfer case if possible unless you do rally.
If you're only going to do HPDE's and only a few a season, go get yourself a nice E46 330xi. It'll do fine at the track and the other 98% of the time you're driving you'll enjoy it alot more than an Evo 8/9 or a WRX. Both the Evo and the WRX can be more entertaining on the track but at the expense of the luxury, comfort and quality feeling that the BMW has.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:MrJoshua wrote: I think the BMW vs Subie issue is that the BMW can be had in RWD only and the Subie cannot. If the Subie had a RWD only version it would probably be a slightly better track toy.Bingo. The AWD BMW's are awesome cars - they are RWD biased so they handle fantastically - but - they pay a substantial weight and driveline loss penalty and have the same power so... same/same pass on the extra diff and transfer case if possible unless you do rally.
Or you up the horsepower appropriately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBx6KP6G-2c
Or just get a RWD BMW, and swap from summer tires to snows for winter? I drove my E36 M3 through a snowy Chicago winter with mediocre snow tires and did fine. I'd rather have the dynamics and simplicity of a RWD car for fun driving and track events, combined with the increased acceleration/braking/cornering traction afforded by snow tires, than trying to compromise by tracking an AWD car other than an Evo or GTR.
I drove my Ti in the snow on summer tyres... the hardest part was just getting going. Once I had momentium up.. she plowed right through up to 6 inches of the white stuff with little drama
Since Track Days are not competition, I would recommend tracking whatever you enjoy driving the most on the street.The whole purpose of track days (other than gratuitous thrills) is to teach you how to get the most out of your car.
BoxheadTim wrote: Actually, if I were after an AWD car that I could use at the track and to get to work, *and* one that doesn't feel like a converted FWD car like the Subarus do to me, I'd have a good hard look at an unmolested Evo 8 or 9.
That's kind of ironic, considering that a Subaru is a dedicated AWD design, whereas the Evo is converted from a FWD econobox... :)
codrus wrote:BoxheadTim wrote: Actually, if I were after an AWD car that I could use at the track and to get to work, *and* one that doesn't feel like a converted FWD car like the Subarus do to me, I'd have a good hard look at an unmolested Evo 8 or 9.That's kind of ironic, considering that a Subaru is a dedicated AWD design, whereas the Evo *is* converted from a FWD econobox... :)
It might be, but there is a marked difference in the way they feel and the Evo doesn't feel like an FWD car, at least not to me.
1skydive wrote: Thank you all for the great replies. I think I would actually prefer just a RWD but I've had that before and the winters just are painful.
Here is my thoughts...... as has already been mentioned... awd has more mass, and more complexity, more cost as well...
I've had a few rwd cars in my day... and a GREAT set of DEDICATED snow tires/wheels got me through anything I needed to get through....
Get the rwd car... go negative 1 or negative 2 on the sizing, and you should be good to go........
set = 4
If you get a Subaru you'll have a blast running a Rallycross too. It's been a bonus for me.
GameboyRMH wrote: On a track car it's hardly relevant, but AWD cars are generally slower initially because it's harder to get the tires near the limits of traction. Seems counterintuitive but that's what happens. In very high-powered cars where available traction is the limit to acceleration, it's a different story but hard AWD launches are very hard on the clutch.
Makes sense!
I'll add my $0.02.
Up until last year I used a bone stock e46 330xi on the track for HPDE events at NHMS. As I progressed the weakness of using an all wheel drive car started to show. Being all wheel drive, I found it difficult to rotate the car as my instructor wanted me as I was becoming more advanced. Also after two events it was time to replace the front rotors since the oem replacements had warped. The weight of the car may have had some factor in the "shorter" life. As mentioned by others, the car has no limited slip differential so the wheel slip is controled by the rear brakes or clutches, or both. Expect a shorter life for the rear brakes as well on the track.
I was faced with either modifng this car or fining a replacement. The performance parts are limited with the xi bmws. I ended up buying a dedicated track car, an e30 325is. Not all can do that so I understand the limitations.
Skydive, I see that you live in Mass., so it is likely that you would be running at NHMS, Lime Rock, and Watkins Glenn, what are others running at those tracks? I understand the desire to get an all wheel drive(that's why I got one), they don't do the best job clearing the roads down where you are, but if you are planning to use the car for more than one HPDE day per year, I would advise against the bmw all wheel drive and go with a WRX or STi. It kills be to say that since I am a bmw fanboy.
The bmw is great for the street, but I found it to be only adequate on the track. If I was going to be buying a new or near new bmw and be taking it to HPDE's it would be a 128, 135, 335is, or M3. The 3 series platform is starting to get too heavy for track use in my opinoin.
I drive a Miata year-round. It's fun in the snow on 175mm snow tires and when the warm weather rolls in the fun continues!
Screw AWD says I.
I thought for sure dave would post about about a legacy GT. Find a legacy spec b. Get a comfy sport sedan, awd and a competent car for hpde. Not exactly perfect, but less boy racerish than a wrx. If you have to go German, an audi might be a good choice. Similar cost of upkeep to an awd bmw. Designed with AWD from the get go. Again, as long as you are having fun it doesn't really matter what you drive and you can live with it daily.
I loved my Legacy GT so much but it just proved too frustrating to keep running.
Throw some Whiteline caster-increasing bushings in the front end and the car really wakes up.
sachilles wrote: If you have to go German, an audi might be a good choice. Similar cost of upkeep to an awd bmw.
Where the heck did you come to that conclusion? Audis are known for being absolute maintenance nightmares...they make E46 window regulators look tame by comparison.
I always liked the Legacy GT a lot more than the WRX, for what that's worth.
AWD is far superior for track use. Audi proved it with their Trans Am cars in the 80's. The Quattro drive was so good, they had to ban it to allow anyone a chance.
But that is assuming that you are building a track car from scratch with a big pile of money. When using a street car for track use, other realities come into play. The BMW AWD system was designed to allow the car to go in the rain and snow, it is not a dedicated performance AWD system like you will find on an EVO or STI. The extra weight and complexity that AWD adds to most street cars is a penalty on track...the EVO and STI are rare exceptions to the rule. Comparing an XDrive BMW to a WRX is Apples to Oranges.
SlickDizzy wrote:sachilles wrote: If you have to go German, an audi might be a good choice. Similar cost of upkeep to an awd bmw.Where the heck did you come to that conclusion? Audis are known for being absolute maintenance nightmares...they make E46 window regulators look tame by comparison. I always liked the Legacy GT a lot more than the WRX, for what that's worth.
Owned three, tracked two. Late 90's early 2000 vintage Audi's deservedly earned a bad reputation. More recent cars tend to be an improvement.
I have a friend who lives in NH and runs pretty regularly at NHMS. He was running a thoroughly re-worked '04 STI ('05-up hubs, KW coilovers, replaced every suspension bushing, turbo back exhaust, upgraded intercooler, R-comps, etc) for a few seasons and ended up moving to a dedicated track car (first an SR20DET powered S13 that had a fire, and now an FC RX7). There were a few reasons why he made that move from AWD DD/track car to DD + separate track car:
1) Compromises between having a dual-duty street/track car
2) Safety (he wanted a full cage in his track car)
3) Financial risk (didn't want to crash his DD on the track)
4) He wanted to learn more on the dynamics side (AWD and differentials can cover a variety of sins)
5) Consumables were cheaper for the dedicated track cars
Not sure all of those are a factor in your case, but I'd definitely take a look at them and see if any apply (or might apply in the near future).
Can't wait to see what you end up with!
P.S. This same friend also runs an EVO IX MR as his DD. As much as I loved his STI, I think the EVO is the better car. The steering is incredible without being twitchy, it's less peaky than I was expecting, the ability to make power after 5k RPM is a big plus over the STI, and the AWD system is incredible. I'll echo the comment made earlier that the EVO doesn't drive like a FWD car. I never would have guessed it has something like 62% of its weight over the front wheels based on how it drives. I went in thinking that I wasn't going to be impressed by the EVO, but ended up loving it. His was lightly modified with a tune, Swift springs on the stock Bilsteins (included on the MR), and a turbo-back exhaust.
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