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Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Bad sportsmanship or poor form? RE: LeMons 1 2 3 4 5 6

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  June 7, 2009 8:18 p.m. P71 Dork

  I read that the LeMons race had a first this weekend. The "People's Curse" winners packed up their car and took off.

  http://jalopnik.com/5282091/peoples-curse-winner-packs-up-flees-lemons-justice

  It does bring up an interesting question though. They've already had TWO cars crushed at LeMons (which I really don't get, why crush a perfectly serviceable race car?) so I can see where they are coming from.

  Is it bad sportsmanship on their part to tuck and run? Or is it poor form for LeMons to crush cars, especially the same team 3 times running?

  It is a n/a Miata (no turbo Caddy finned pink one this), but the Team Dynamics wheels cost more than my whole car...

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  June 7, 2009 8:27 p.m. AngryCorvair Dork

  the peoples curse (and the rough driving prevalent in earlier events) is why i don't do lemons. even if it's a $500 pos, i'll put a lot of BS&T into it, and i'm not going to let someone else decide that it should be trashed.

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  June 7, 2009 8:29 p.m. modernbeat HalfDork

  Screw Jay. I've heard stories that voting-results for the curse have been faked to eliminate so-called ringers. Jay's got a hard-on for Miatas and specifically for that team.

  If the LeMons group would exercise their claiming rule more often and claim some of the real ringer cars, I'd be less upset about the curse.

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  June 7, 2009 8:35 p.m. Buzz Killington New Reader

  "perfectly serviceable race car" is, let's say...generous for 98% of the cars at a lemons race.

  i agree that they should start claiming cars. honestly, if something is really a cheater car, they could probably claim it and immediately resell it for a profit.

  i'm surprised they got the curse if they ran clean and were good guys. the only curses i've seen were either d-bag driving (in a cheater car) or clogging the track in a diesel benz that could barely move.

  i'm always amused by how upset non-participants get over the Curse.

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  June 7, 2009 8:50 p.m. GregTivo Reader

  Simply put, if you're taking a car to the LeMons that you wouldn't be willing to get drunk and shoot to pieces in the middle of the field, you're missing the point. If they brought that car to GRM challenge, that would be one thing, but LeMons is two things "Fun driving" and "creative fixing". Time goes into every creation. Hell, I spent days fixing up and decorating my BABE car this year, but if the organizer of BABE walked up to me and told me I had to sell him my car for $500 (since our rule is the car must be worth that amount), I'd gladly hand over the keys and take the money, for him to destroy, race or do whatever with it. Simply put, the "People's Curse" is LeMons way of keeping their series from completely becoming a "racing series with NASCAR level whinging". Its supposed to be a fun way to destroy a dying car IMO. So what if a team loses a car each year. The cars are supposed to be on their last legs anyway, one step from the parts yard.

  Anyway, my vote is two big thumbs down to the fleeing miata team.

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  June 7, 2009 9:46 p.m. P71 Dork

  I was under the impression that LeMons cars were like Challenge cars, a $500 budget with sell-offs, etc. In fact, reading the Jalopnik post about the first Miata this team had crushed pointed out a 240Z with over THREE GRAND in it! We're talking complete 280Z engine, suspension, and brake swap, upgraded parts galore, and they admitted to it. That sounds like a race car that could be doing SCCA Club Racing next week, not something to be crushed.

  I don't know how to feel about this, since I wasn't there, but it seems to me these guys were already pretty cool with having TWO cars crushed, so I can kinda see them throwing in the towel with car #3.

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  June 7, 2009 9:51 p.m. GregTivo Reader

  P71 wrote:

  I was under the impression that LeMons cars were like Challenge cars, a $500 budget with sell-offs, etc. In fact, reading the Jalopnik post about the first Miata this team had crushed pointed out a 240Z with over THREE GRAND in it! We're talking complete 280Z engine, suspension, and brake swap, upgraded parts galore, and they admitted to it. That sounds like a race car that could be doing SCCA Club Racing next week, not something to be crushed.

  I don't know how to feel about this, since I wasn't there, but it seems to me these guys were already pretty cool with having TWO cars crushed, so I can kinda see them throwing in the towel with car #3.

  I could see where you could have $3000 dollars invested in all the safety items that don't count to the budget, but other than trying to keep the drivers alive and well, its not like the intent of any of that work is to improve the car. Its the price you pay to be allowed to take your POS around a course at speed, but it certainly wasn't Lamms intent to make this a "poor looking but well sorted car" race. Its supposed to be "stay safe and figure out how bailing wire can be used most creatively" race.

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  June 7, 2009 9:53 p.m. P71 Dork

  According to the Z owners, they had $500 "total" in the 240Z and 280Z parts car minus the bits they sold off. The extra $2500 was in wheels, tires, suspension, brakes, fuel system w/cell, and rollcage.

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  June 7, 2009 10:13 p.m. gimpstang New Reader

  the point of LeMons is to race E36 M3. if you spent enough money and drove like a douchebag bad enough so that people took notice of you, then you deserve to be crushed. At the LeMons events I have been too, teams are given a chance to remove the safety seats and equipment prior to the crushing. the extra expenditure for those items aren't lost.

  sounds to me like these guys were Bob Costas who knew they had cheated, got caught, and couldn't own up to it.

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  June 7, 2009 10:14 p.m. ReverendDexter HalfDork

  Considering that this would be their THIRD car crushed, I say I would've done the exact same thing.

  Honor would dictate that they never run in LeMons again, though.

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  June 7, 2009 10:17 p.m. HappyAndy Reader

  I've never been to a lemons event, but I would like to, and maybe even compete at some future time. I have read the rules on the lemon web site. My suggestion would be to implement the claim rule on blatant cheater cars, sell the car on ebay or a similar outlet, maybe split the profit with the offending team and ban them for the rest of the season. Since the lemons folks like cruel and unusual punishment I have another Idea to really deter cheating; a team who's car is claimed as a cheater car must complete the race in a car provided by the race organizers. I'm sure they could find something that would strike fear in the most recidivist cheaters.

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  June 7, 2009 10:20 p.m. P71 Dork

  gimpstang wrote:

  sounds to me like these guys were Bob Costas who knew they had cheated, got caught, and couldn't own up to it.

  Why would they cheat on their third car though? That doesn't make any sense. They've done two other LeMons, both times taking the crushing in stride. At #3 you have to start questioning if somebody has it out for them. They weren't even in the lead...

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  June 7, 2009 10:39 p.m. gimpstang New Reader

  P71 wrote:

  gimpstang wrote:

  sounds to me like these guys were Bob Costas who knew they had cheated, got caught, and couldn't own up to it.

  Why would they cheat on their third car though? That doesn't make any sense. They've done two other LeMons, both times taking the crushing in stride. At #3 you have to start questioning if somebody has it out for them. They weren't even in the lead...

  or perhaps start questioning if you were doing things correctly. At my first LeMons event there was, quite literally, a spec miata entered. It was docked 250 laps but it wasn't crushed. An E30 was crushed because they had spent the entire time driving like asshats. they deserved it. This year a fully prepped Griggs Mustang was crushed. again driving like asshats. I bet it would be interesting to see how the drivers of this poor unfortunate picked on team were driving.

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  June 7, 2009 10:46 p.m. modernbeat HalfDork

  I was on the team when our second car got crushed. I can confirm that minus the safety equipment, the two cars we ran at that event were $500 cars IN RACED CONDITION, which is how it is supposed to be. It's not a race for cars you bought for $500 and then spent six months working on like GRM Challenge events. It's a race for $500 cars. And frankly, minus the cage, seats and wheels, I wouldn't have paid $500 for either of them.

  One of the Miatas we raced in the spring had two quarts of oil and two quarts of STP in it to give it any oil pressure. The other one had been run over by a garbage truck. Any really good parts had been swapped OFF the LeMons cars as spares for Spec Miata cars. They really were a couple of mix-and-matched junkers.

  And on the price of junker Miatas - within the last year we've bought two 1.6 cars. One was at auction and was a very nice '91 that had an electrical short, but ran fine and came with a hardtop and a Hard-dog rollbar for $850 out the door. It's slated to become a nice street car. The other was a sunbaked '90 that ran, but has the dreaded crank pulley wobble and no title - price was $200. We considered taking it to LeMons this fall, but after this - no way.

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  June 8, 2009 12:26 a.m. laz New Reader

  Thumbs down for the Miata leavers. A car being crushed is part of the race. If you don't like it, don't show up in the first place.

  I may buy that they're running a true $500 car, but they must be doing something that upsets the other teams. Maybe that thing is showing up and racing like SCCA racers?

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  June 8, 2009 7:39 a.m. GameboyRMH SuperDork

  I think after two unwarranted People's Curse elections in a row I would have stopped showing up, no matter how E36 M3ty the car involved...coming a third time was asking for it...in their shoes I probably would have done the same thing. It seems like picking on this team has become a running joke, which might be funny if you're not at the receiving end of it.

  Edit: Check the comments, I think I found what's happened here:

  UDman said:

  You know, if they didn't show up in that $50,000, air conditioned trailer, with a Dually Pickup, all fancy schmantzy with Miata Spec stenciled at the back, maybe they wouldn't get targeted.

  Rules that I've learned with Lemons Racing include; you have to look like you could barely afford to race, bring along a car that looks like it will barely run, and keep quiet about the caliber or drivers on your team.

  Oh, and if you prep a car that's not necessarily a Miata, BMW E30, Honda CRX, or a combination of the three (Talk about a Frankenstein monster!) I think the judges are going to go easy on you, as are the other teams. Please remember that , other teams of New England!!!!

  Wow, that's like going swimming off the south coast of Australia with your shorts packed full of chum. More than enough to start a running joke as well.

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  June 8, 2009 7:48 a.m. Xceler8x Dork

  If anyone can dig up a response from Jay I'd like to read it. Sounds like this will be discussed quite a bit over the internets for the next week or so.

  Just read the post above mine...

  Sounds like they're effectively banning the makes listed above via the people's curse, fixed or not. I can vouch for how frustrated Porsche drivers get when they have to point-by a Miata during HPDE's. I'd bet they'd have voted my Miata into the people's curse quite a few times if the option were there at some track days.

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  June 8, 2009 7:59 a.m. aussiesmg Dork

  Not a fan of crushing the cars, seems wasteful and even spiteful in this case, a claim rule with a buy back value makes more sense. IMHO

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  June 8, 2009 8:28 a.m. Strizzo Dork

  the comment about the support equipment sounds like jealous BS to me. if i were already running a spec miata, and had all that support equipment, am i supposed to just NOT use it so as not to upset the other teams that can't afford to race? what horsepoop

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  June 8, 2009 8:38 a.m. dyintorace Dork

  Strizzo wrote:

  the comment about the support equipment sounds like jealous BS to me. if i were already running a spec miata, and had all that support equipment, am i supposed to just NOT use it so as not to upset the other teams that can't afford to race? what horsepoop

  Agreed. Envy is a powerful force.

  As for the original question, it's hard to know whether they deserved crushing or not without having been there. As someone posted earlier, I was under the impression that the 'victim' car can be stripped of worthwhile parts prior to crushing. The downside is it would be tough/impossible to pull the cage out though and those can be $$$.

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  June 8, 2009 8:40 a.m. aeronca65t HalfDork

  I ran one Lemons event.

  Our team was prepared to be crushed and we would have taken it in stride if it happened. No whining for sure.

  What I had not thought about, and was not prepared for was watching another team get their car destroyed. It really, really bothered me and did not "fit" with the way I have always viewed motorsports.

  In a NASA, SCCA or vintage event, I always want to beat the other guys, but at the same time, I hate to see bad things happen to them. I'm always happy to help out a fellow-competitor lending parts, wrenching or whatever. Lemons seems to skip over the idea of camaraderie in motorsports.

  It very much bothered me to see folks cheering to see one of the cars get destroyed. The owners tried to put on a good face, but for me it really sucked to see the down-trodden expression on those guys. To me, that's not what we celebrate in racing. I also wasn't real keen to see active drivers in the event drinking beer. That's a real red-flag for me.

  Anyway, maybe I'm just old-school and don't "get" this concept. That's not problem because there are plenty of motorsports events I really do enjoy. For those returning to Lemons, I hope you have a good time and please stay safe. I won't be returning to any Lemons event.

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  June 8, 2009 8:52 a.m. belteshazzar Dork

  If it only costs a few senseless crushings per event to keep Lemons from getting too serious, that seems worth it to me.

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  June 8, 2009 10:17 a.m. laz New Reader

  From http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?pid=2796#p2796

  MurileeMartin wrote: The car wasn't so cheaty as to be totally radioactive, in my opinion, but it was clearly built using a vast stash of Miata parts that were "just lying around the shop." I think they made several mistakes:

  1. They didn't decorate the car worth a damn.
  2. They didn't change their MO one bit after two Houston Curses, even knowing that 70% of their fellow racers would be Houston LeMons veterans. Even granted that they believe they must run a Mazda, why not bring a Protege, 626, or even a 929? The way they can drive, they'd still be top contenders in a non-Miata.
  3. They remained totally isolated and anonymous at an event packed with aggressively friendly Louisianans and Texans. While others were cooking up food for everybody, trading tools and skills, dancing in the skeeter-saturated night air, etc., this bunch stayed invisible.