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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Bad sportsmanship or poor form? RE: LeMons

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June 8, 2009 10:56 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork

Let's not forget that Peoples' Curse is NOT at Jay and Co's discretion but rather is selected by ballots submitted by the other drivers.

I was at the same events as gimpstang and voted for the PC both times. I can say in both instances it was as if they set out to get People's Curse. One team member from the guys with the E30 posted on this very board that it was a source of pride to them to get that award.

I think the guys who packed up and left showed poor sportsmanship and also that makes them look like they were cheatin' like hell. Which is, after all, the whole People's Curse point.
June 8, 2009 10:58 a.m. mw Reader

The crushing keeps me away from lemons. Even though it's a $500 car, just the effort to build, organize a team with safety equipment, get to the event, etc and potentially not get to race because you don't fit in or people don't like your car is something I won't sign up for.
June 8, 2009 11:11 a.m. kreb Dork

Not knowing the facts (do any of us?) this sounds like bullE36 M3. I've heard that cheating is common, and that the organizer has a hard-on for Miatas from several sources. So if cheating is commonplace, are these guys getting their ass kicked because they don't cover it up well enough? Or are they not kissing the proper behinds?
June 8, 2009 11:16 a.m. belteshazzar Dork

This is not the $200x challenge. People seem to be confusing the point of the two.
June 8, 2009 11:31 a.m. GameboyRMH SuperDork

Strizzo wrote:

the comment about the support equipment sounds like jealous BS to me. if i were already running a spec miata, and had all that support equipment, am i supposed to just NOT use it so as not to upset the other teams that can't afford to race? what horsepoop

I wouldn't say it's jealousy. While it may be practical, I'd think that rolling up to a race that's supposed to be about low cost and improvisation in a fancy rig - even if it's basically irrelevant to the competition - would make you a target for Curse of the Day.
June 8, 2009 11:33 a.m. DILYSI Dave UltimaDork

GameboyRMH wrote:

Strizzo wrote:

the comment about the support equipment sounds like jealous BS to me. if i were already running a spec miata, and had all that support equipment, am i supposed to just NOT use it so as not to upset the other teams that can't afford to race? what horsepoop

I wouldn't say it's jealousy. While it may be practical, I'd think that rolling up to a race that's supposed to be about low cost and improvisation in a fancy rig - even if it's basically irrelevant to the competition - would make you a target for Curse of the Day.

But why? If I've got a dually and enclosed sitting in my driveway, wouldn't it be dumb to borrow a half ton and rent a uhaul trailer, just for appearances?
June 8, 2009 11:41 a.m. kreb Dork

DILYSI Dave wrote:

GameboyRMH wrote:

Strizzo wrote:

the comment about the support equipment sounds like jealous BS to me. if i were already running a spec miata, and had all that support equipment, am i supposed to just NOT use it so as not to upset the other teams that can't afford to race? what horsepoop

I wouldn't say it's jealousy. While it may be practical, I'd think that rolling up to a race that's supposed to be about low cost and improvisation in a fancy rig - even if it's basically irrelevant to the competition - would make you a target for Curse of the Day.

But why? If I've got a dually and enclosed sitting in my driveway, wouldn't it be dumb to borrow a half ton and rent a uhaul trailer, just for appearances?

Exactly, there's an aspect of play acting as a hick here. It reminds me of this motorcycle club I know of where practically everyone's educated upper-middle-class and they act like Hells Angel wannabees.

If I was a serious racer, I imagine that it'd be fun to set aside the world of $2000 revalved shocks and take part in an event where if you could simply manage to keep your beater on the track you were doing good. To get set upon for presenting yourself too professionally reminds me of "Lord of the Flies"
June 8, 2009 11:55 a.m. Junkyard_Dog Reader

Crushing cars gets lots of press and might excite average Joe sixpack, but to a true car enthusiast crushing ANY car, let alone somebody's hand built project, is disgusting. I really was hoping the event would fall out of favor and die.
June 8, 2009 12:45 p.m. Jensenman MegaDork

JYD, I think you miss the point of Lemons. It's not meant to be hand built cars; it's to try to make junk last for 16 hours. Like the coat hanger wire that held the other end of our throttle return spring. The organizers KNOW there is going to be cheating, that's the reason for the judging and also Peoples' Curse.

There's another aspect as well: we have all been to some race or other where there's somebody cheating that you just can't catch at it and many's the guy who's said 'they really ought to have their car smashed just for cheatin'. It's a racer's favorite fantasy come true.
June 8, 2009 12:47 p.m. Buzz Killington New Reader

Junkyard_Dog wrote: to a true car enthusiast crushing ANY car, let alone somebody's hand built project that they not only willingly and with full knowledge of the potential consequences brought to the event, but paid for the privilege of doing so
fixed for you.

personally, i think if my team wants to (or agrees to have someone) crush the car we've built, it should be our right to do so. there are (or should be) no unwilling participants in this.
June 8, 2009 12:54 p.m. modernbeat HalfDork

Jensenman wrote:

Let's not forget that Peoples' Curse is NOT at Jay and Co's discretion but rather is selected by ballots submitted by the other drivers...

The ballot is only a nomination. Jay and Co make the final determination. They say that at the driver's meeting.
June 8, 2009 12:57 p.m. Jensenman MegaDork

Okay, maybe I missed that part. At least at the two I attended, the ballot determined the, er, winner.
June 8, 2009 12:57 p.m. dj06482 New Reader

I think the team had the right idea. 3 times is ridiculous, regardless of what kind of tow rig/trailer they're showing up in...
June 8, 2009 1:22 p.m. RobL Reader

modernbeat wrote:

The ballot is only a nomination. Jay and Co make the final determination. They say that at the driver's meeting.

They didn't say that in any of the three events I've been to. At the last event, they read out loud the teams that got votes and the number of votes that each team got.

Modernbeat, I find it curious that your LeMons experience was so vastly different than many others on this board. Which event(s) did you attend? (Nevermind, I see you were on a team that got crushed - Don't you think that it skews your perspective a bit?)
June 8, 2009 1:30 p.m. RobL Reader

DILYSI Dave wrote: But why? If I've got a dually and enclosed sitting in my driveway, wouldn't it be dumb to borrow a half ton and rent a uhaul trailer, just for appearances?

No one is saying that. But if you pull up with an enclosed trailer with Spec Miata on the side, a Miata rolls out, the Judges determine that they are cheating (25 lap penalty) and that Miata proceeds to kick everyones ass on track and be in 4th place at the end of day 1, don't you think that there is going to be some grumbling in paddock? In a previous LeMons race, they had $1200 diff in thier "$500" car.
June 8, 2009 1:31 p.m. EricM HalfDork

Heck, if you don't like it , don't go. There is a pretty long line of cars and teams willing to take your spot.

I haven't been to one, but I have read about them, so base everything I say on that.
June 8, 2009 1:51 p.m. RobL Reader

Junkyard_Dog wrote:

Crushing cars gets lots of press and might excite average Joe sixpack, but to a true car enthusiast crushing ANY car, let alone somebody's hand built project, is disgusting. I really was hoping the event would fall out of favor and die.

Buzz put it in a nice way, but there are no unwilling participants here. You sign up with about 100 other teams and hope that the 1% chance of misfortune doesn't fall on you.

These are not hand built projects. These should be cars that were saved from going to the junkyard by mere hours before the wrecker got to them. My LeMons cars, and I have had two, was a Corolla that had 150k on the ODO and was more bondo than sheetmetal. And the second, an MR2, was found under a pine tree in someones backyard.

You clean them up, you get them running, you put safety equipment in them, and you see how long they last on the track.
June 8, 2009 2:06 p.m. captain_napalm New Reader

aeronca65t wrote: Lemons seems to skip over the idea of camaraderie in motorsports.

Having been fed by a LeMons group @ NPR in LA, and watching several teams eating, drinking, dancing, and doing karaoke, I'd have to disagree.
June 8, 2009 2:15 p.m. sachilles Reader

I'm sure rolling up in the nice trailer could have be neutralized by some vinyl on the side that said "free beer, if you don't crush my car". A nice trailer like that is probably loaded with tools and such, a long with some knowledge of how to use them. A little pro-active courtesy on their part to "share their wealth" probably would have helped them avoid the curse. Crushing a car is a bummer, but a necessary evil.
June 8, 2009 2:18 p.m. slefain Dork

I'm going to throw my vote in with the "you knew the rules" side of things. They knew how it works. That's why I'm not tossing my Mirage in the hat for a LeMons car, I want to keep it. It's a pretty simple idea I'd say. Race the LeMons, risk the car. Done.
June 8, 2009 2:22 p.m. Matt B New Reader

RobL wrote: Modernbeat, I find it curious that your LeMons experience was so vastly different than many others on this board. Which event(s) did you attend? (Nevermind, I see you were on a team that got crushed - Don't you think that it skews your perspective a bit?)

Unless there was a post deleted, I don't see where Modernbeat said anything negative about the events, let alone anything to do with a "vastly different experience". The only thing he said about the event at all was that he wasn't going to bring the next junker miata he found. Fair enough to me.
June 8, 2009 2:36 p.m. RobL Reader

Matt, I was more or less addressing that MB heard that the ballots were only a recommendation to Jay and that he says this at the drivers meeting - no one else has confirmed this. He also says early in the thread that he heard second hand that Jay fakes the results to get rid of ringers.

Having thown a bolt into the Benz's engine, I can guarentee you that the team was not a ringer.

slefain wrote:

Race the car, risk the car. Done.

Fixed that for you.
June 8, 2009 2:38 p.m. gimpstang New Reader

I am not buying into the whole "tow rig" excuse either. My first time at LeMons we showed up with 1. 40' Tractor Trailer with hydraulic lift gate and 4 post lift 2. 20' RV 3. 30' RV 4. several cars and tents

we made our own little compound camping area

The second time we went to LeMons we brought the 53' Tractor Trailer with lift gate and 4 post lift along with assorted RV's and cars, etc. Yet we didn't get crushed because we: A. didn't cheat and B. didn't drive like bungholes.
June 8, 2009 2:43 p.m. CrackMonkey HalfDork

Sounds like a load of crap to me. Most of the posts on the Lemons forum are along the lines of "he was fast, therefore he cheated". BullE36 M3. Miatas are fast cars. Miatas with good drivers are very fast cars. A well accomplished Miata racer running laps around a bunch of lesser equipment does not surprise me. So far, I haven't seen any proof that they were cheating, beyond "OMG he has a Spec Miata at home and a fancy trailer and is faster than me!!!1!!!!eleven!"
June 8, 2009 2:47 p.m. Rusnak_322 New Reader

It would be stupid to not bring the trailer and not race a Miata since they have all the experience with that car. And I doubt that they really care about losing the car - they risk losing a spec Miata that can be worth $20k+ routinely.

The crushing rule is stupid. I haven't been to one of these races, but I didn't think that is was a demo derby. Is it not possible to re-use a car that didn't get crushed?? Or does everyone start with a new car each time?

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