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Login to post Forums » Grassroots Motorsports » Bad sportsmanship or poor form? RE: LeMons

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June 8, 2009 3:04 p.m. Buzz Killington New Reader

sure you can re-use a car! the more times, the better! you can even get it revalued after the race to open some budget space. the corolla Rob referred to is going on its 4th Lemons and (aside from going shiny side down in SC) has been fast and relatively bulletproof. our MR2 will be at its second race in the fall.

if you're not OK with losing the car, don't bring it. it's that simple. no one wants it to happen to them, but we all know the deal.

sachilles wrote:

I'm sure rolling up in the nice trailer could have be neutralized by some vinyl on the side that said "free beer, if you don't crush my car". A nice trailer like that is probably loaded with tools and such, a long with some knowledge of how to use them. A little pro-active courtesy on their part to "share their wealth" probably would have helped them avoid the curse. Crushing a car is a bummer, but a necessary evil.

it had better be decent beer...not the Natty Ice that a certain well-heeled team tried to pass off in SC this spring. if you're going to bribe people, fine (although it's preferable to be genuinely friendly)...but don't half-ass it. lemons competitors, by and large, have been really cool, and a hell of a lot of fun to hang out with. besides the seat time/$$ ratio, the people are what make the event worthwhile.
June 8, 2009 3:46 p.m. DWNSHFT New Reader

I'm curious about the sort of driving involved. A fast driver in a decent car will be a lot faster than average drivers in any car. So if these guys had a decent Miata and could pedal, and were trying to make up a 25 lap penalty, they might be slicing through traffic pretty good. Even if they are decent about it, some of the other drivers might think the driving was too aggressive. On the other hand, the line between carving through traffic and forcing through traffic can be a little thin sometimes, especially if the other drivers are not entirely predictable.

People talk about whether there's a ringer involved. A "ringer car" is cheating but a "ringer driver" isn't cheating. But the ringer driver will probably go by faster than a ringer car.

It seems to me that at this very-low budget level, quality of mechanicking is going to have a much greater impact on lap times than quantity of dollars. A good mechanic can make a sow's ear pretty quick, but trying to make a sow's ear into a silk purse with dollars while even appearing to stay under budget would be pretty difficult, I would think.

LeMons does not seem to be a good playground for folks who take themselves, and their racing, and thier cars, seriously. If you can't take the joke, don't play. I can understand bailing on the third crushing, but I think there's a tacit agreement to never come back.

David
June 8, 2009 4:26 p.m. RobL Reader

Fast driver, fast car (cheaters), being obnoxious on the track. They got the curse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnFiMaY2Dj8

at 1:45, they pass a previous LeMons winning team/car - a Miata.
June 8, 2009 4:47 p.m. Jensenman MegaDork

DWNSHFT wrote:

LeMons does not seem to be a good playground for folks who take themselves, and their racing, and thier cars, seriously. If you can't take the joke, don't play. I can understand bailing on the third crushing, but I think there's a tacit agreement to never come back.

David

Now THIS guy gets it.

I also have video of the first CMP People's Curse 'winner' passing our car under yellow.

BTW, we ran the same car twice but with different powerplants. We had to retire the poor thing after the last race. Speed wasn't the problem, reliability was.

Plan B is sitting in my stable right now.
June 8, 2009 5:20 p.m. mad_machine UltraDork

the siren would have earned them a vote for curse too.

though a full police getup with lights and all would have gotten a thumbs up from me
June 8, 2009 5:28 p.m. RedS13Coupe Reader

dj06482 wrote:

I think the team had the right idea. 3 times is ridiculous, regardless of what kind of tow rig/trailer they're showing up in...

I would have had to be there to have a firm opinion...

BUT if it is true that these guy show up year after year only to unload a car at race time, win and go home I can see where they would get a crushing.

I agree that if you have a real nice trailer and tow rig its stupid not to use it... but it also seams like such lavish accommodations would make an idea spot for a large BBQ and a few ice chests.

From the reports that these guys show up in fancy equipment, and only come out of seclusion to race it sounds a bit like they aren't showing up for the fun and spirit of the event, rather packing up the trailer and heading out to win a race.

If they truly are there to win a race, and not just to participate in a bunch of guys trying to do an endurance race in junkyard cars I can see why they would be singled out.

Again, that opinion is based on plenty of internet hear say, and opinion... so If I am wrong, I'm wrong...
June 8, 2009 5:35 p.m. RobL Reader

mad_machine wrote:

the siren would have earned them a vote for curse too.

Them hitting the siren at 2:00AM in paddock when almost everyone else was asleep earned them quite a few votes.
June 8, 2009 5:50 p.m. DILYSI Dave UltimaDork

RobL wrote:

mad_machine wrote:

the siren would have earned them a vote for curse too.

Them hitting the siren at 2:00AM in paddock when almost everyone else was asleep earned them quite a few votes.

The fact that people were asleep at 2:00AM is proof that the Challenge is better. :)
June 8, 2009 6:18 p.m. Toyman01 Reader

DWNSHFT wrote:

LeMons does not seem to be a good playground for folks who take themselves, and their racing, and thier cars, seriously. If you can't take the joke, don't play. I can understand bailing on the third crushing, but I think there's a tacit agreement to never come back.

David

What he said.

I can honestly say I didn't pay attention to what the two Curse winners at Lemons South used as tow rigs. I know the Mustang guys hauled the scrap off behind a Budget truck. I don't think rich or poor even enters into it. I know we showed up last year with a large camper, race trailer and an assortment of transportation. Several teams show up with 100K plus tow rigs and don't get crushed. Money doesn't really enter in to it. Show up with your nose in the air and play the serious "race" driver will probably get you crushed in a hurry. If you show up for the sole purpose of winning a race, you at the wrong event. If you are worried about destroying a car, your at the wrong event. If you show up to have a blast, meet some real strange people who like building junk and trying to get it to run 16:00:01 and really don't care if the car makes it home this race is for you. Drive or act like a A$$, you get crushed. Don't like it, don't enter. I think they turned down a bunch of teams for Lemons South. It isn't like they are hurting for teams. I figure Jensenman and I had 60-100 hours in our last crap heap. If it got crushed, we would have smiled and drank beer the rest of the weekend and had just as much fun.

Splitting before your car gets crushed should get you banned for life, third car or not. If the guys were getting picked on, I'm sorry to hear that, but maybe there is a reason for it.
June 8, 2009 8:06 p.m. Strizzo Dork

Or maybe if you don't like the guys, don't accept their reg for the race rather than letting them in just to get pissed and crush their car.
June 8, 2009 8:09 p.m. MrJoshua SuperDork

If they were up at 2am sounding a siren they can't have been that secluded. I'm guessing there was beer involved.
June 8, 2009 9:21 p.m. Junkyard_Dog Reader

Jensenman wrote:

JYD, I think you miss the point of Lemons. It's not meant to be hand built cars; it's to try to make junk last for 16 hours. Like the coat hanger wire that held the other end of our throttle return spring. The organizers KNOW there is going to be cheating, that's the reason for the judging and also Peoples' Curse.

There's another aspect as well: we have all been to some race or other where there's somebody cheating that you just can't catch at it and many's the guy who's said 'they really ought to have their car smashed just for cheatin'. It's a racer's favorite fantasy come true.

I get the point, I just don't agree with it. Even without the crush factor, those cars are built to be destroyed and I just can't stand that. To me all the cars are hand built unless they paid a shop to do it. If I prep a car for a race with my own two hands its hand built. As opposed to bought.

Maybe I take too much pride in my work to see it destroyed, be it by my hand or someone else's whim.
June 8, 2009 9:54 p.m. RedS13Coupe Reader

Junkyard_Dog wrote:

Jensenman wrote:

JYD, I think you miss the point of Lemons. It's not meant to be hand built cars; it's to try to make junk last for 16 hours. Like the coat hanger wire that held the other end of our throttle return spring. The organizers KNOW there is going to be cheating, that's the reason for the judging and also Peoples' Curse.

There's another aspect as well: we have all been to some race or other where there's somebody cheating that you just can't catch at it and many's the guy who's said 'they really ought to have their car smashed just for cheatin'. It's a racer's favorite fantasy come true.

I get the point, I just don't agree with it. Even without the crush factor, those cars are built to be destroyed and I just can't stand that. To me all the cars are hand built unless they paid a shop to do it. If I prep a car for a race with my own two hands its hand built. As opposed to bought.

Maybe I take too much pride in my work to see it destroyed, be it by my hand or someone else's whim.

Well, then its not the race for you... But plenty of motor sports are based around being more then willing to destroy the car, and building around that. Look at monster trucks and demo derby cars...
June 8, 2009 10:12 p.m. nderwater New Reader

April marked my first Lemons event. Our team was running one of the fastest cars on track, which meant that our drivers were passing lots of cars down the straits and going deep into the corners. A little red mist led to several offs and contacts and subsequent penalties. Were we considered dicks by some of the other teams as a result? I'm sure - but fortunately for us there were other teams at the event which were bigger jackovs and another team got the curse.

But in the end our car was destroyed anyway by fire. The let down was huge, and only got bigger in the weeks following the race. Most of the team has lost their interest in doing another lemons event. We're not wealthy guys, and we had a lot of time and money tied up in our car. I can only imagine that we would have felt the same if our car had been crushed.

Those of you bench racing and saying 'they knew what they were getting into' may be right, but that doesn't change how much it sucks to have your car destroyed. I don't know about the rest of you, but though we built our car for lemons, the team used it for autocross and track days too. Losing it sucks. And having a car picked to be destroyed a third time? That might have been too much for me too.
June 8, 2009 10:31 p.m. Toyman01 Reader

nderwater wrote:

April marked my first Lemons event. Our team was running one of the fastest cars on track, which meant that our drivers were passing lots of cars down the straits and going deep into the corners. A little red mist led to several offs and contacts and subsequent penalties. Were we considered dicks by some of the other teams as a result? I'm sure - but fortunately for us there were other teams at the event which were bigger jackovs and another team got the curse.

But in the end our car was destroyed anyway by fire. The let down was huge, and only got bigger in the weeks following the race. Most of the team has lost their interest in doing another lemons event. We're not wealthy guys, and we had a lot of time and money tied up in our car. I can only imagine that we would have felt the same if our car had been crushed.

Those of you bench racing and saying 'they knew what they were getting into' may be right, but that doesn't change how much it sucks to have your car destroyed. I don't know about the rest of you, but though we built our car for lemons, the team used it for autocross and track days too. Losing it sucks. And having a car picked to be destroyed a third time? That might have been too much for me too. .

I hated to see the BMW burn and would not wish that on anyone that is attached to a car. If you have any attachment to a car don't bring it to Lemons. Our T-bird was a tool. Ran it the first year had a blast, but blew the engine. Spent way too many hours re-powering it wrecked the front and back, blew the engine again. Stripped it for parts hauled the hulk to storage and bought another car. No great loss. Both cars were steps away from the junk yard. We just delayed the trip by a year or too. We had no attachment to the car other than to use them up and have fun doing it. If you love/like the car keep it at home. The best car to bring to lemons is one you hate. Then you will be just as glad to see it crushed as everyone else.
June 8, 2009 10:52 p.m. RobL Reader

nderwater wrote:

Those of you bench racing and saying 'they knew what they were getting into' may be right, but that doesn't change how much it sucks to have your car destroyed. I don't know about the rest of you, but though we built our car for lemons, the team used it for autocross and track days too. Losing it sucks.

You don't take a car onto a track that you are not 100% willing to walk away from. Crushing or not... On the track you have no idea what could happen. Sure you would lose a lot of time and money, but it happens.
June 8, 2009 11:54 p.m. blaze86vic Reader

There are a lot of good reads in here. And a lot of good, and IMO, ignorant views on the matter. However, reading most of this has done one thing for me. I'm not going to do a Lemons now.

I was really looking forward to building a $500 V8 swapped compact car. $150 for an engine and trans from the junk yard. I can rebuild an engine without replacing anything but gaskets and it would cost less than $50. I can weld, cut, grind, and design to make anything I want for cost of scrap metal. So it was fairly easy to accomplish in the $500 budget. And my friends and I are fairly capable drivers, we all have experience driving sub par track cars beyond par expectations. Hell I drove an 86 Crown Vic for over a year on track. We aren't the best drivers by any means, but we can handle our own pretty dang well.

But after reading a lot of these posts, I realize now that if I did accomplish this that I'd be pretty much guaranteed to be crushed. Which doesn't make much sense to me. Lemons is awesome, but there is so much money envy and smug VS mugs crap involved here that I'm rather turned off. Basically there are a few people that are just not invited;

Groups that can use their talents to make an awesome car from nothing with nothing.

Groups that are capable of drivings the pants off of anything.

Groups that are shy.

Groups that are in any way not poor.

And for those that this applies to, the whole poor vs rich crap get over yourself. You know what the difference between a person that hates white people and someone who only likes white people is? Nothing
June 9, 2009 6:04 a.m. Duke Dork

Wow, I don't read much of that into this at all. Mostly what I read is that if you perenially behave like dicks, you get your car crushed.
June 9, 2009 7:03 a.m. Jensenman MegaDork

LeMons is first and foremost a party, as in 'I went to a party and a road race broke out'. As was said earlier, if you are going to get all serious about your racing then maybe you are better off doing something else that weekend. As it says on the Web site, 'Participants are expected to play well with others'.

There have been plenty of teams who showed GREAT ingenuity when building their cars and honestly may have put too much time into them, personally I didn't let it bother me. Now, the ones driving like azzholes, that's a different story. That's what I took into account when checking off my ballot.

I know that even with Tirewarmer and his damn blackflags, the Taiwanese National Anthem, wrenching on the car, etc I still had a great time and I'll do it again.
June 9, 2009 8:21 a.m. CrackMonkey HalfDork

RobL wrote:

at 1:45, they pass a previous LeMons winning team/car - a Miata.

So? It looked like he was the only one on track with half a clue how to race. Nobody was driving defensive lines, half the cars weren't even running the standard "best line", and a good number appeared to be totally timid when it came to passing. Give me something that proves he cheated - something other than "he's too fast, he must be cheating!"
June 9, 2009 8:39 a.m. belteshazzar Dork

belteshazzar wrote:

This is not the $200x challenge. People seem to be confusing the point of the two.

I'm just going to keep saying it until some of you ninny's get it.
June 9, 2009 8:40 a.m. RobL Reader

CrackMonkey wrote:

Give me something that proves he cheated - something other than "he's too fast, he must be cheating!"

They were paddocked next to me. Before they were crushed they pulled a carbon fiber drive shaft out of the car. If that isn't cheating, I don't know what is.

BTW, if you look at some of the other videos that were posted from that guy, they were doing a pre-race interview with one of the drivers where he admitted that they were bringing a cheater car to the event.
June 9, 2009 8:44 a.m. nderwater New Reader

The fact that "he's too fast, he must be a professional race car driver" really put a lot of people off. I had no problem with that - there's no rule in lemons stating that you have to be a noob. His team hitting the siren in the middle of the night would have been a problem though, but I was camped far enough away not to hear it.
June 9, 2009 9:16 a.m. poopshovel SuperDork

i'm always amused by how upset non-participants get over the Curse.

Amen.

You signed the muther berkeleying contract.

and hallelujah.

And another thing, for those saying that crushing cars is disgusting and sad and "If you like that sort of thing, you're not a real car guy - "

A "real car guy" (whatever the berkeley that means) would show up and berkeleying race, not spend his time bitching and whining about the rules of the game on internet message boards.

Did I put REAL blood and sweat into our LeMons car? Yes. Was there discussion (due to the offensive nature of our 'graphics package') of "Wow, they may actually crush the car while it's on the trailer?" Abso berkeleying lutely. The plan was to sawzall-out the cage, and laugh our asses off while the car got crushed.

You don't like the rules? Don't play the game. And speaking of rules, the cardinal rule of LeMons is: NO WHINING!!! Start there. If you can't not whine, LeMons isn't for you.

LeMons is by far one of the coolest, most fun auto-related weekends I've ever had, and the organizers obviously put a lot of THEIR blood, sweat, and tears into these things. I'd hate to see the day where they say "berkeley it" and pack it in, because of a bunch of whiners with keyboards.

My $.02
June 9, 2009 9:32 a.m. P71 Dork

I've never seen or participated in a LeMons, but it is one of the many automotive exploits I would like to participate in. I started the thread to have a discussion. After reading all of the posts I get the feeling that the only whiners are the people literally screaming "NO whiners!!!!11!".

I still don't know if LeMons cars are supposed to be 1 step from a demo derby or $3000 Datsun Z Cars, but the party sounds wicked. As a "real car guy" I don't like the idea of crushing a car, but I would totally sell/let somebody claim my entry so it can continue to race. What's so bad about that instead of destroying a car?

I should spectate at one of these before making up my mind, but the "camaraderie" seems to be lost on teh intarwebz posters that have been...

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