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93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 SuperDork
10/28/10 8:19 a.m.

Where do you guys buy your AN stuff? Cheap is good.

Summit seems to have decent prices, but i have a HELL of a time navigating through their site to find what i want.

I'm needing a bunch of stuff for a new AFPR setup, and also for my "baller" Moroso catch can.

Tentative list:

3' 6AN line
5' 10AN line
2x Straight 6AN connectors
2x 6AN to 6AN fittings
1x 6AN cap
1x 6AN to Metric 16x1.5 adapter
1x 90 degree 6AN connector
1x 10AN "Y" fitting. (2x 10AN in, 1x 10AN out)
2x NPT to 10AN adapter
1x Straight 10AN fitting
6x Straight 10AN connectors

I have a feeling it ain't gonna be cheap.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
10/28/10 8:25 a.m.

Speedway has them too but - same navigation issues. They were better to deal with via phone. No such thing as cheap AN but Summit/Speedway have better prices than say... Aircraft Spruce. Do you have a flare tool? If not - speedway has a "decent" one from Rigid tools for $129.

None of the cheaper ones I tried were worth a E36 M3.

Dr. Hess
Dr. Hess SuperDork
10/28/10 8:26 a.m.

"Cheap" and "AN fittings" are mutually exclusive. Summit or Jegs is otherwise about the lowest price. Pegasus, while usually a little more, has everything and a great catalog.

I prefer the Russell brand braided lines. And get a Koul tool for the line sizes you're working with. Best thing evar for AN work. Greatly minimizes the bleeding fingers. You can cut braided 6AN line with a small HF cable cutter ("Not for steel cable") and a lot of force. Sure beats the cutoff wheel. I recently bought a big HF cable cutter but haven't tried it out yet.

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 SuperDork
10/28/10 9:24 a.m.

Ugh. Was hoping that there was an offbrand or something that was really cheap.

I started trying to find everything on www.anplumbing.com which carrys Earls stuff, but the damage rapidly approached $200.

Well, if anyone has any input, here's what i'm trying to do:

AFPR and Catch Can setup.

I'm tapping my spare valve cover and removing the PCV valves, going to run to the catch can to help relieve more pressure than the stock system can deal with, since it's getting a little sketchy at my boost levels. It's a Moroso vented catch can with one 10AN inlet. I'll be running two lines from the valve cover.

Basically, i'd need metric/NPT to 10AN adapters at the valve cover. Then 10AN fittings on hose from each to a 10AN "Y" adapter. Then 10AN fitting, hose, to catch can with male/male 10AN.

Parts list for catch can setup:
1x 10AN "Y" fitting. (2x 10AN in, 1x 10AN out) 2x NPT to 10AN adapter 1x Straight 10AN fitting 6x Straight 10AN connectors
5' (maybe less) 10AN line

The rest is AFPR stuff, using this write-up:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2036393/1990-mazda-mx-6-spotswood-nj-us?p=3

Anyone have some better and/or cheaper ideas?

Ranger50
Ranger50 Reader
10/28/10 10:01 a.m.

For the catch can, I would see if your local hydraulics shop has anything available. You aren't under huge pressures with a PCV system.

I know a lot of people poo-poo the idea, but the pushlok style hose and fittings are almost 1/2 the price of regular stainless/nylon braided stuff. Biggest problem with the pushlok hose is getting the cut a perfect 90 degrees. If you don't, the hose just doesn't seem to hold up.

Brian

unevolved
unevolved HalfDork
10/28/10 10:05 a.m.

I'd talk to a local hydraulic shop. Ours is surprisingly cheap.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt Dork
10/28/10 10:28 a.m.
unevolved wrote: I'd talk to a local hydraulic shop. Ours is surprisingly cheap.

That can work too. Note that industrial JIC fittings will connect to AN as well. The tolerances on them aren't as tight, but they're a lot cheaper. The "AN" fittings on some Holley products, for example, are really JIC.

pirate
pirate New Reader
10/28/10 10:32 a.m.

I purchased some AN fittings and Push-Loc hose from a company named Murdock Industrial in Akron, Ohio. Their onlne catalog was good and pricing was very good however it took almost two weeks before the parts were delivered.

Unless you have a big order its probably more practical to order from Summit or Jegs. With these type parts its the shipping or handling charges that make the parts expensive. This is really true if you forget something and have to reorder just a couple fittings. I like the brand name Aeroquip as they were/are one of the leading manufacturers for aircraft applications.

I also like the AeroQuip Push-Loc hose for everything other then brake lines obviosly. Sears has a Craftsman Edge Utility Cutter Pliers (009-37309) which uses utility knife blades that makes perfect cuts on Push-Loc hose. Very clean and square cuts. Not mentioned but stainless steel hose weight adds up after a while use it for brake lines where it serves a purpose save the weight elsewhere. Just my two cents!

Keith
Keith SuperDork
10/28/10 10:37 a.m.

Huh, I find the Summit site to be pretty effective. The biggest problem is inconsistent part descriptions across manufacturers - what one will call a 10mm fitting, another might call 10x1mm.

If you can't sort it out, then go directly to the Russell or Earls websites. Get the part number and just plug that into the Summit search box.

AN stuff drives me nuts. I'm in the middle of a brake system. I have my choice of metric parts (as used on every new car, but parts are hard to find), SAE parts (easy to find locally, but you won't find them on modern cars) and AN (uses a different flare angle for no particular reason, only available from race shops but also the only type of fitting race shops deal with). Argh. I've managed to keep the AN crap down to two places in the system.

Zomby woof
Zomby woof Dork
10/28/10 10:44 a.m.
MadScientistMatt wrote:
unevolved wrote: I'd talk to a local hydraulic shop. Ours is surprisingly cheap.

That can work too. Note that industrial JIC fittings will connect to AN as well. The tolerances on them aren't as tight, but they're a lot cheaper. The "AN" fittings on some Holley products, for example, are really JIC.

True.

AN is an American thing. We don't have AN stuff up here. It's JIC.

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 SuperDork
10/28/10 10:56 a.m.

There is actually an Earls shop about 20 minutes from me.

Probably a good idea to just go down there, tell them what i want to do, bring the valve cover, rail, and catch can, and have them lay it on me?

ditchdigger
ditchdigger HalfDork
10/28/10 11:04 a.m.
MadScientistMatt wrote: . Note that industrial JIC fittings will connect to AN as well. The tolerances on them aren't as tight, but they're a lot cheaper.

And as an added bonus (at least for me) JIC isn't avaliable in those boring and lame anodized red and blue that AN fittings are. I cannot stand that look.

I buy all my JIC bits from a local pneumatic/hydraulic supply for about half of the cheapest price I can find online for AN stuff.

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 SuperDork
10/28/10 11:10 a.m.

I was actually planning on going black lines with silver fittings to keep with my current theme because i'm a ricer at heart.

93gsxturbo
93gsxturbo Reader
10/28/10 12:19 p.m.

As stated above, if you can live with steel fittings you can get by with JIC from a hydraulics shop. A little more utilitarian, but they work just fine.

I would be hesitant to use Summit or JEGS branded fittings, I think they assemble a lot harder than name brand fittings.

As far as buying them, for Summit or Jegs I use the paper catalogs to get the PNs and just key them in, their online stores are clunky.

2002maniac
2002maniac HalfDork
10/28/10 12:44 p.m.

There are some ebay sellers that have good deals on AN stuff. Try BAT as well. They carry mocal brand which is a bit cheaper iirc.

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 SuperDork
10/28/10 12:47 p.m.
2002maniac wrote: There are some ebay sellers that have good deals on AN stuff. Try BAT as well. They carry mocal brand which is a bit cheaper iirc.

BAT?

Bring A Trailer?

Keith
Keith SuperDork
10/28/10 12:48 p.m.

British American Transfer.

http://www.batinc.net/mocal-central.htm

2002maniac
2002maniac HalfDork
10/28/10 12:59 p.m.
93celicaGT2 wrote:
2002maniac wrote: There are some ebay sellers that have good deals on AN stuff. Try BAT as well. They carry mocal brand which is a bit cheaper iirc.

BAT?

Bring A Trailer?

BAT

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt Dork
10/28/10 1:04 p.m.
93gsxturbo wrote: I would be hesitant to use Summit or JEGS branded fittings, I think they assemble a lot harder than name brand fittings.

That has been my experience with Summit's house brand fittings.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
10/28/10 2:05 p.m.
Keith wrote: ... and AN (uses a different flare angle for no particular reason, only available from race shops but also the only type of fitting race shops deal with)

The reason is that they can be taken apart and put back together a million times and still seal correctly where typical NPT and automotive OE stuff cannot. The tolerances are really tight so it costs a lot to make properly. Well, the real reason is the military made the spec and so there is a lot of tooling for it... but it really is good stuff. I "could" argue that for things you don't plan to disassemble often there is no reason to use it but it is also nice to have one spec to stock sizes for in the garage that can do it all. Brakes, fuel, clutch, etc...

JIC is, in theory, the same and interchangeable but the tolerances are not as exacting as "mil spec" so mixing them is not a good idea if you do not enjoy surprises.

Keith
Keith SuperDork
10/28/10 2:42 p.m.

Looking at flare fittings - how is the AN stuff better than, say, SAE? Other than the angle of the flare, it's basically the same. I certainly see the advantage of a straight thread over pipe, but I don't use those in brake systems if I can help it.

It certainly would be nice to have one spec for sizes. Unfortunately, I don't have any cars built from scratch with all aftermarket parts. So I have to deal with the specs that manufacturers use, and having the race shops ignore these specs just makes like painful. I find the tubing sizes are different enough that having AN fuel parts on hand is no use to me when I'm building brakes.

Why is it so hard to find metric brake parts? For example, Wilwood has a tendency to put NPT holes in their brake parts like their master cylinders, residual pressure valves or proportioning valve. They'll often come with a nice NPT-SAE flare adapter. But again, modern cars don't use SAE fittings anymore. They use metric. Where do you find an NPT-metric inverted flare adapter? Only one place: Flyin' Miata. And that's because we had to have the stupid things custom-made so we could simply plug it into our existing brake systems.

I think the reason the race guys use AN is because of two things: Carroll Smith and a lot of military surplus stuff 40 years ago.

Am I a little frustrated? Yeah. It's like this every time I have to build brake systems, sorry.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker
Giant Purple Snorklewacker SuperDork
10/28/10 3:12 p.m.
Keith wrote: I think the reason the race guys use AN is because of two things: Carroll Smith and a lot of military surplus stuff 40 years ago.

I'm sure both are true. Also, lots of engineers making race cars of that era didn't have a lot of options in an aftermarket, OE Automotive stuff was more random than it is now, the military had solid specs... and the "good enough for aircraft, good enough for me" addage was hard to argue. I'm sure that is how Carroll got to using it.

Keith wrote: Am I a little frustrated? Yeah. It's like this every time I have to build brake systems, sorry.

I hear that.

The metric adapter E36 M3 is a huge pain if you can't deal with it by having SS lines made with two different ends - but my race car uses Tilton masters so it is all AN all the way to the calipers... which are Wilwood so there are 1/8 NPT to AN -3 just right there - everything else is all uniform just because I had so much trouble in the past.

I have a nice HF rack full of AN 3, 6, 10 and 12 straight, 90 and tube nuts. A couple bulk head connectors and that about does a whole car for everything.

patgizz
patgizz SuperDork
10/28/10 4:47 p.m.

i have never had any issue assembling any summit, earl's, russell, or aeroquip hoses. if you do it right it isnt hard at all.

Zomby woof
Zomby woof Dork
10/28/10 5:33 p.m.
Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: JIC is, in theory, the same and interchangeable but the tolerances are not as exacting as "mil spec" so mixing them is not a good idea if you do not enjoy surprises.

That's just not true.

Most JIC stuff is used in high pressure hydraulic applications. More demanding than most automotive applications.

The spec on JIC fittings is good enough for any automotive application

Keith
Keith SuperDork
10/28/10 5:42 p.m.

I seem to recall from one of Carroll's book that he started using AN nuts and bolts because 1) they had consistent quality control and intelligent shank sizing and 2) he could get them by the ton from surplus stores. You certainly can't complain about that. I expect the hydraulic fittings followed the same logic.

In my example of the brake proportioning valve, that's something that should ideally pop in place of the factory part. Just bolt it into the existing hard lines. So that NPT-to-metric adapter is critical. But it's simply a part that doesn't exist in nature. This is the sort of problem that drives me nuts. If you're modifying production cars, you have to keep converting to and from AN even though production cars are pretty consistent. WHY is it so hard to find metric brake parts? Quick, name a vehicle made in the last decade that uses SAE flare fittings.

On my MG project, I have Miata calipers and a Wilwood master. So metric fittings on the calipers and I have one of the few Wilwood masters with an SAE flare right on the master. I also have access to a large collection of SS lines with plastic sleeves that were assembled by a pro, not the guy at NAPA who was given a 5 minute lesson from a guy who got a 5 minute lesson from a guy, etc. So I'd like to use those.

So far, so good. Both the metric and the SAE flares use a 45 degree cone, so I just have to remember to slip the correct flare nut over the tube. Since I'm building my own lines, the rare (but easily accessible to me and me alone) NPT-metric adapter is not a big deal at all, and I can make all of the flares SAE except where they have to fit up to the front lines. But in the rear, I have a banjo fitting to deal with and a solid axle. No need for flex lines here, right? All I need is a banjo to flare adapter. Great. I have several to choose from, all at different angles. But they all have *#@$ AN fittings on the other end, and they use that different flare angle. So either I have to get a new flaring tool, stack up adapters or find a different option. I'm finally solving it by using an off-the-shelf SS line with an AN fitting on the other end and an AN-NPT adapter into a tee. It means more junctions and a section of flex line where none is required, but this way I can actually put it together with what I have access to.

If I were building a full-on race car with all new bits, it would be a different matter. I could throw away my 45 degree flare kit, get a 37 degree one and a wall with a big pile of AN fittings. But I have this tendency to modify production cars, and AN flares remain a pain in my patootie. Someday I'll spend another pile of cash on a good AN flare tool and this will become less of an issue. But right now I'm just angry at the performance industry that has settled upon a "standard" that is only found in the performance industry, and not on the cars the performance industry is modifying. Add to that the fact that you simply can't find AN bits in this town, so any time I need a fitting I have to wait for UPS to bring it in.

My fuel system is all AN. That was easy enough, although I had to keep ordering in the perfect fitting - I seem to have an appetite for 45 degree bends, for some reason. That was fairly easy because the whole thing was basically built from scratch, and push-lock to AN adapters dealt with the connection to the fuel rail. My PS system was also straightforward, once I laid my hands upon the custom AN-to-Miata-rack fitting found only on the shelves of FM. But sweet cheesus, the brakes!

Okay, rant over. Sorry, just had to vent.

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