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mazdeuce
mazdeuce PowerDork
10/29/15 6:27 p.m.

The A&M guys have a world class test facility too. Not sure what the rules are for them accessing it, but it's concrete as far as the eye can see. Amazing place to AX.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
10/29/15 6:46 p.m.
mazdeuce wrote: The A&M guys have a world class test facility too. Not sure what the rules are for them accessing it, but it's concrete as far as the eye can see. Amazing place to AX.

Jealous. There are hardly even any corners in my town, much less any place where we could test a car.

unevolved
unevolved SuperDork
10/29/15 8:25 p.m.
mazdeuce wrote: The A&M guys have a world class test facility too. Not sure what the rules are for them accessing it, but it's concrete as far as the eye can see. Amazing place to AX.

Right now, the access is actually pretty limited. I heard some jackass students decided they needed to do burnouts, and all student groups lost access to the big section. A buddy of mine was at the last event, said it was just a small out-and-back.

Rmon
Rmon New Reader
10/30/15 11:55 p.m.

I'm the Texas A&M Driver and team manager. First of all, we do have (some) access to some pretty awesome facilities, but we had next to no chassis tuning done on our car since we were too busy making sure the stoopid turbo was working :/. I had only one autox worth of seat time in the car on those tires, not a ton of seat time. Our spring rates were something like 350/250 on crappy KYB shocks. We have a lot to gain on suspension, and are also looking to move to a 15x10 from 15x8 wheel for next year, which should net a ton of extra grip on 275 Hoosiers. Additionally, we ran 112mph on our fastest drag pass, and that was with a missed shift and 17.5psi of boost (I believe we can run 20psi for a pass or two :)). We are going to spend the next year getting some practice at the strip. We are never gonna do great in the concours, but I'd like to at least get the car more finished-looking as far as paint goes before next time.

edit: Also, our first two autox runs were spent struggling with power. We realized our timing had been messed up, and we were somehow running around 15+ degrees retarded depsite having checked it before the challenge. We ran a 41.9 with this retarded timing, which also should have been good for FTD. Obviously resetting it helped (a ton), and we actually had to turn the boost back down after resetting the timing since 2nd gear became unusable :0

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/31/15 9:05 a.m.

In reply to Rmon:

DLD
DLD New Reader
10/31/15 8:33 p.m.

Do either of you Miata teams have any idea what kind of power output you're getting? Just curious.

Rmon
Rmon New Reader
10/31/15 9:06 p.m.

In reply to DLD:

We're estimating around 300 crank HP based on what others have made at similar boost levels with similar turbo setups. But no dyno time or anything for us

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/31/15 9:16 p.m.

In reply to DLD:

The math says we were only about 158 hp at the wheels, 190 hp at the flywheel.

A&M was more. I'd say about 215.

grafmiata
grafmiata SuperDork
10/31/15 11:37 p.m.
Dietcoke wrote: And that car was built for $2015? Lol. No.

And here we go again...

DLD
DLD New Reader
10/31/15 11:44 p.m.

Wow, that's pretty impressive if accurate!

Rmon wrote:

In reply to DLD:

We're estimating around 300 crank HP based on what others have made at similar boost levels with similar turbo setups. But no dyno time or anything for us

DLD
DLD New Reader
10/31/15 11:47 p.m.

I don't know why people find it so hard to believe a lot of HP can be had for cheap. It's all about how much actual work you are willing to do yourself instead of paying someone to do it, and how much time you are willing to invest in learning what to do. None of this is rocket science!

ckquote>Dietcoke wrote:

And that car was built for $2015? Lol.

No.

DLD
DLD New Reader
10/31/15 11:51 p.m.

Yours is a 1.6 liter, and heirs a 1.8liter?

SVreX wrote: In reply to DLD: The math says we were only about 158 hp at the wheels, 190 hp at the flywheel. A&M was more. I'd say about 215.
wheels777
wheels777 Dork
11/1/15 4:14 a.m.
Dietcoke wrote: ...... but lets call a duck a duck here.

Okay, you are not willing (most common reason why people doubt) or able (I apologize if that is your situation) to work hard enough to build a car for $2015 that performs at a high level.

These cars are built with cubic sweat, not cubic dollars. Most doubters are too lazy to come to the 'free entry for spectators' event and are far less likely to pick up tools to work hard enough to do it. Quack like a duck, walk like a duck...probably a duck.

Instead of belly aching about what you think can't be done, why don't you get off the keyboard and spin some wrenches. There are many folks on here willing to help others learn to do it more cost effectively. But if you show up with a closed mind, you can't succeed.

Until you attend an event or try to build a car with an extreme budget limit, and doubt those who are putting in the effort, you're a duck. Hope this satisfies your previously posted request.

wheels777
wheels777 Dork
11/1/15 4:28 a.m.
Dietcoke wrote:
wheels777 wrote:
Dietcoke wrote: ...... but lets call a duck a duck here.

Okay, you're not willing (most common reason why people doubt) or able (I apologize if that is your situation) to work hard enough to build a car for $2015 that performs at a high level.

These cars are built with cubic sweat, not cubic dollars. Most doubters are too lazy to come to the 'free entry for spectators' event and are far less likely to pick up tools to work hard enough to do it. Quack like a duck, walk like a duck...probably a duck.

Instead of belly aching about what you think can't be done, why don't you get off the keyboard and spin some wrenches. There are many folks on here willing to help others learn to do it more cost effectively. But if you show up with a closed mind, you can't succeed.

Until you attend an event or try to build a car with an extreme budget limit, and doubt those who are putting in the effort, you're a duck.

Surely I've never turned a wrench in my life, that must be it.

Surely I've never attended a race

Surely I have no budget.

Surely you have nothing better to do but making an attack on my character, when you can neither disprove my point, nor know anything about me.

Your previous posts made your position clear.

wheels777
wheels777 Dork
11/1/15 4:32 a.m.
Dietcoke wrote: And that car was built for $2015? Lol. No.

Your words, not mine.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
11/1/15 6:51 a.m.

In reply to Dietcoke:

Dude- stop. You are wrong.

Let me tell you how I handled my own doubts...

My first Challenge was in 2004. I saw cars that I was confident were cheating, and it disappointed me, because I really had held it to the budget. I placed 13th out of 70 something, but still had those nagging doubts.

The next year, I decided to do something about it. When I arrived, I ID'ed the top 5 or 6 cars I doubted. Then I spent some time investigating. I met the owners, talked with them, heard their stories, reviewed their build books, even crawled under their cars. I came to believe that the only difference between them and me had nothing to do with money, cheating, or lying. It had to do with the fact that they had more creativity, talent, and time invested in their cars than I did. That's all.

I became a believer, and I started putting a lot more in myself.

This year, after 11 years of effort, I made the podium. If you'd like to argue about it, or try to downplay my effort, that's fine. You can join the crowd of other doubters, but you are missing out on a really incredible experience and opportunity.

If you come, you will understand. Until them, your critical accusations are not very welcome (though they are expected, and understood).

BTW, one of the cars I doubted was Andrew's (wheels777). There is probably no one who has scrutinized him more carefully than me. I've watched him closely for years, and am absolutely convinced he is the real deal. And I have learned a ton from him. He has built 180* exhaust systems from scrap pipe, lapped valves with a belt sander, built a 5 window coupe out of a VW Bug, and built incredible machines in a barn with a dirt floor.

So, join the party! You'll be amazed. But please stop pissing in the punch bowl.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
11/1/15 7:14 a.m.

In reply to Dietcoke:

You called a man a liar without knowing anything about him and are insulted when he tries to guess why you don't believe him?

What do you doubt? Try asking questions on specifics instead of dismissing the entire build as impossible for $2015. Wheels777 keeps a very detailed budget of his builds.

alfadriver
alfadriver UltimaDork
11/1/15 7:58 a.m.
Dietcoke wrote:
wheels777 wrote:
Dietcoke wrote: ...... but lets call a duck a duck here.

Okay, you're not willing (most common reason why people doubt) or able (I apologize if that is your situation) to work hard enough to build a car for $2015 that performs at a high level.

These cars are built with cubic sweat, not cubic dollars. Most doubters are too lazy to come to the 'free entry for spectators' event and are far less likely to pick up tools to work hard enough to do it. Quack like a duck, walk like a duck...probably a duck.

Instead of belly aching about what you think can't be done, why don't you get off the keyboard and spin some wrenches. There are many folks on here willing to help others learn to do it more cost effectively. But if you show up with a closed mind, you can't succeed.

Until you attend an event or try to build a car with an extreme budget limit, and doubt those who are putting in the effort, you're a duck.

Surely I've never turned a wrench in my life, that must be it.

Surely I've never attended a race

Surely I have no budget.

Surely you have nothing better to do but making an attack on my character, when you can neither disprove my point, nor know anything about me, what I've built, or my personal capabilities.

I may have missed something here- but it appears that you think it's ok to attack other people based on what you think, but it's not ok for others to do it to you. Based on that alone, it seems quite fair to completely ignore you.

But I also want to point out- is there more than $2015 in equity in the cars? Depends on what you call equity- if it's the sum of the value of the individual parts- no. Having done it myself, too- I do think that people are keeping the parts cheap. If you can't find those parts at those prices- that's your problem. If you base the equity on the value of the parts all assembled in a car- no question the cars are more valuable than $2015. Nothing wrong with that.

Again, instead assuming that you are correct, go down and check it out for yourself. You seem to be a builder. Seem to be capable of making it. It's not rocket science- it's just a constraint that one must deal with.

But, if you insist on questioning the character of the competitors- which you clearly have- and can't take it, well, I would just suggest to go away. You, as an individual, will not stop this game. Unless you enjoy being angry.

sanyarcosean
sanyarcosean Reader
11/2/15 12:04 p.m.

HOLY THREADJACKING BATMAN!!!

Started out as a thread on the Nelsons Killer Beetle, transitioned into The Miata Self-Love Support Group, then made its way to the once a year "This is B.S. I don't know how to get good deals or do hard work so I'll just flame the guys that can" post.

Nicely done, I see we have learned to multi-task...

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
11/2/15 12:12 p.m.

In reply to sanyarcosean:

You're right.

I apologize.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
11/2/15 12:17 p.m.

In reply to sanyarcosean:

It was definitely missing a "I don't like what you guys are posting" post. Without one, no tangent heavy thread is complete. Thank you for adding one.

SilverFleet
SilverFleet UltraDork
11/2/15 12:51 p.m.

I usually keep my mouth shut when this stuff comes up, but this made me mad.

Until you build your own fast car for short money, you are NOT going to understand. Try it instead of bashing others and throwing around accusations. It 100% CAN be done, given you want to put the time and effort in.

I know Mr. Nelson. I have seen his "shop" (aka, his barn), his inventory, and he is NOT cheating by any means. This is a guy who designs his own stuff from other people's cheap or discarded race parts, abandoned projects, and scrap metal. He counts every single ounce of weight on the car to calculate what he needs for power from the engines he assembles, and these engines are often put together from old circle track parts that are picked up for pennies on the dollar. He scours Craigslist and other places for cheap cars and parts, and has amassed an impressive inventory of dirt cheap speed parts. What he can't buy he fabricates, basically from piles of scrap. I've seen it all, and he's the real deal.

When I started attending the Challenge, I thought the same thing: there's no way these guys are going this fast for under $2k. Fast forward to today: I bought a Shelby Dodge CSX for $100 on this very forum, and it was filled with parts. I spent another $60 buying a guy's entire basement full of Turbo Dodge parts, and sold most of it except the stuff I wanted to keep, and I traded some of it for parts I needed. The car itself was a rusty pile, but I cobbled together patch panels from discarded scrap from other projects. At my last check: I have around $22 into the whole build. Not $22k, TWENTY TWO DOLLARS. When the car is done, it will not only be fast, but it will be well under that $20xx budget. While I have been lagging on the build, it should be carving the cones next season.

There are many other teams, like the SDAC guys, the Westside crew, Ed Malle, and many others that have proven that you CAN go this fast on this budget, and we continue to do it every single year.

So, instead of saying you can't, start learning that you CAN. Go to one of these events and see for yourself, and maybe you will catch the bug like so many of us have.

ncjay
ncjay Dork
11/2/15 1:04 p.m.

I gotta tell ya, I thought pretty much there was no way you could build some of these cars for $2000, but I've spent enough time in Pull a Part yards to know you can build one kick ass vehicle if you have the knowledge and put the effort in. I've seen high school kids shove V-8s into places they aren't supposed to be because they didn't know it couldn't be done. Turbos get mounted on engines they were never designed for. Computers get reprogrammed to make it all work. It's all about knowledge. Also helps to be able to weld or know a guy.

TRoglodyte
TRoglodyte SuperDork
11/2/15 1:33 p.m.

From what I have read on the interwebz Wheels777 has the most legal VW in these here United States. Observation from the cheap seats. Fahrvergnugen.

patgizz
patgizz PowerDork
11/2/15 2:02 p.m.

i feel the need to defend Mr Nelson, but think he put it out there just fine and i don't need to create drama.

if you don't think it can be done, try or don't. but don't come around throwing ignorance around at those who did/do it. this was my first event. i yanked my car out of a field june 1st and in 4 months i changed the engine, built new fuel system, did bodywork, painted it inside and out, new cooling system, new exhaust, reconfigured the interior to fit me better, mounted new tires, and did a ton of other stuff. the car never left the garage or the concrete pad in front of it in that time. nobody touched it but me. nobody spun a wrench, nobody picked up sandpaper, nobody helped. i had right around $1780 into the car and ended up not using my nitrous system at the event so if you take that $400 off i'm below $1400 per the budget rules. I could have actually made a paper trail to show i gave $100 for the car but i put it in the budget spreadsheet at $600 because i felt that was more in the spirit of the competition. I scrounged. I got the car out from under a tree with a blown engine. the hood was warped. i picked up stuff on trash night to make parts with. i took other people's castoff parts and fixed them or remade them into stuff i could use. i went to swap meets. i bought stuff at home depot and made it into car parts. i've never autocrossed in my life and had no idea what to expect. i was my own pit crew, driver, mechanic, videographer, truck driver, and i finished 11th out of the non exhibition cars this year. i've been doing a lot with a little for years and finally made it, and doubt i'll ever miss a year from here out.

so before you doubt, come join us next year. otherwise, don't, nobody will miss you. but if you do try, come and have fun with us. i will be there next year.

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