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Jerry
Jerry HalfDork
8/5/13 11:58 a.m.

I see this as another in a list of Scion saying "Never mind, we're going back to selling beige Camry's instead".

They started as an enthusiast brand promoting individuality and making the cars personal with plenty of options, some good some not so good. The 1rst gen xB was a hit even if a bit pokey.

Enter the 2nd gen with less quirky styling, slightly more HP without enough to be worth it (also includes the less MPG of course.) Recently the standard tC got all the goodies previously reserved for the Release Series (and the RS owners were pisssssssssed).

And over the last year they've pulled out of everything for current owners that sort-of made up for the brand's shortcomings. Events, give-aways, that sort of thing. Sure they were free (usually) and I think owners would have happily paid $20-30 to attend awesome Scion Exposed events. Instead they're sending cease-n-desist letters to groups and companies that have the word Scion in them.

MCarp22
MCarp22 HalfDork
8/5/13 12:17 p.m.

They built something like 10 FR-S for every 1 BRZ, it's not shocking that people see more of the FR-S.

BAMF
BAMF HalfDork
8/5/13 12:44 p.m.
MCarp22 wrote: They built something like 10 FR-S for every 1 BRZ, it's not shocking that people see more of the FR-S.

This jives with my experience. I've had about a dozen Frisbee sightings, and all but one have been Scions.

cwh
cwh PowerDork
8/5/13 12:46 p.m.

How does the pricing compare with a Miata?

Knurled
Knurled UberDork
8/5/13 12:47 p.m.
Jerry wrote: Can Scion do anything else to shoot themselves in the foot besides physically shoot themselves?

Toyota isn't really interested in making performance versions of stuff.

Knurled
Knurled UberDork
8/5/13 12:49 p.m.
MCarp22 wrote: They built something like 10 FR-S for every 1 BRZ, it's not shocking that people see more of the FR-S.

I thought I'd read here that Subaru was limiting production to 6,000 per year.

lovelett
lovelett New Reader
8/5/13 1:40 p.m.
racerdave600 wrote: I went test driving on Saturday, and these were on my short list. My observations from a local point of view. Subaru can't keep BRZs on the lot, while the FRSs hang around forever. First, the Subaru I think is the nicer car. The interior is worth it alone. It feels more upscale where the FRs feels cheaper. More to the point, you can get the nicer BRZ for about 3k less than Scion wants for a no option FRS. They still think people are forking over tons more than list to buy them and they won't deal at all. Subaru was dropping $1,300 off MSRP and pre-selling them as fast as they could get them. From a driving perspective, I liked the Subaru better, but didn't drive it at autocross speeds.

I would shop around more. The first couple sold for sticker+ dealer fee at my store, after that we have sold plenty of them for under invoice. I have 15 of them still sitting here.

MCarp22
MCarp22 HalfDork
8/5/13 2:12 p.m.
Knurled wrote:
MCarp22 wrote: They built something like 10 FR-S for every 1 BRZ, it's not shocking that people see more of the FR-S.

I thought I'd read here that Subaru was limiting production to 6,000 per year.

I had read that they were limiting it to 6000 units in america for the 2013 model year. I've heard other ratios as well, but the bottom line is there is (or was) a production agreement with Toyota to build more of the Toyota versions.

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 UltraDork
8/5/13 5:33 p.m.

I'd love to see a TRD version and an STd (diesel) sitting next to each other. Nothing like TuRDs and STds in the same region.

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
8/5/13 8:25 p.m.

I see them all the time. Several per day. Usually they're FR-S's, but the occaisional BRZ as well. That said, this area has a high level of disposable income and is not terribly affected by recession or economy etc...so it's probably not a good representation of the rest of the country.

irish44j
irish44j UberDork
8/5/13 8:29 p.m.

Also, it's probably easier to sell the FR-S. At a Scion dealer, someone shopping for an actual performance car has exactly one choice. And the tC isn't it.

At a Subaru dealer, people who go to look at a BRZ probably "for the hell of it" test a WRX or STi while they're there. And for many people, they have more performance and more day-to-day sensibility, at a fairly similar price, so they may steal some sales of people saying "why would I pay $25k for a RWD, non-turbo car with ~200hp when I could pay $25k at the same dealer for an AWD, turbo car with ~275hp that has more room to boot...."

LainfordExpress
LainfordExpress HalfDork
8/5/13 8:41 p.m.

I feel like I see way way more FR-Ss. And they're freaking everywhere.

z31maniac
z31maniac PowerDork
8/5/13 9:02 p.m.

There is a red FRS in the over a few blocks in the neighborhood, but other than that, I don't see many of either. Maybe 1 per week.

But I live in the land of Bro-trucks and SUV's.

PHeller
PHeller UberDork
8/5/13 10:06 p.m.

I still feel like the AE86 was more a new Celica or baby Supra than it was a RWD Corolla. Needed to be cheaper and more practical, and able to be sold to moms and dads with children and pets.

Kenny_McCormic
Kenny_McCormic SuperDork
8/5/13 10:12 p.m.
PHeller wrote: I still feel like the AE86 was more a new Celica or baby Supra than it was a RWD Corolla. Needed to be cheaper and more practical, and able to be sold to moms and dads with children and pets.

This. The AE86 was more of a Corolla+sport, rather than just an awesome sports car.

carguy123
carguy123 UltimaDork
8/6/13 8:04 a.m.

$19,900 as we were promised and they are out the door all day long, $25,000 and that puts them up against a totally different set of competitors like the WRX and while I really like the BRZ it's not as much a car as a WRX, much less other brand's competitors.

I too have been told there's an agreement that Xtimes as many FRSs will be built than BRZs.

The car itself is a home run IF they will just build them in sufficient quantities.

The only way they'll peter out in 5 years is if they don't build but a few each year.

Knurled
Knurled UberDork
8/6/13 12:22 p.m.
irish44j wrote: Also, it's probably easier to sell the FR-S. At a Scion dealer, someone shopping for an actual performance car has exactly one choice. And the tC isn't it. At a Subaru dealer, people who go to look at a BRZ probably "for the hell of it" test a WRX or STi while they're there. And for many people, they have more performance and more day-to-day sensibility, at a fairly similar price, so they may steal some sales of people saying "why would I pay $25k for a RWD, non-turbo car with ~200hp when I could pay $25k at the same dealer for an AWD, turbo car with ~275hp that has more room to boot...."

All that, and Toyota wants to sell Toyota volumes of cars.

Subaru tried that and it nearly killed them. They went back to niche marketing and it works for them. So they have no problem at all selling a low-volume niche vehicle.

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson UberDork
8/6/13 12:38 p.m.

Does anyone have relative sales figures for the two rather than anicdotal 'I see more/less of this one that one'?

I'm well known as NOT being a Toyota fan, but I think both cars are awesome. My gut feeling is that they are actualy selling quite well, I do see a fair number and the Scoobie styling really works for me.

kreb
kreb SuperDork
8/6/13 1:10 p.m.

They're pretty common in the San Fran Bay Area. It's unfortunate that the styling is "generic sporty Japanese car". Would love to see more memorable styling.

I don't see low 30s as outrageous for 300 HP and upgraded suspension, wheels, trim etc. At that point it should spank most everything South of a Cayman S or Vette on most road courses.

e_pie
e_pie HalfDork
8/6/13 1:14 p.m.

I don't really see the problem with the FSR/BRZ as is honestly. It's a cheap blank slate car much like sporty-ish Japanese cars were in the 90s. Great chassis/car sold as a somewhat mundane package that is easily upgradable in the aftermarket. Once you start making it fast out of the box its cost will go up in lockstep with its performance and the performance parts might not be 100% what you want anyways.

carguy123
carguy123 UltimaDork
8/6/13 1:36 p.m.

I find it to be anything but a generic Japanese sporty car. It's styling is quite distinctive and they stand out on the road.

You expect generic Japanese sporty car, but when you see it it pops somehow.

e_pie
e_pie HalfDork
8/6/13 1:47 p.m.
Jerry wrote: I see this as another in a list of Scion saying "Never mind, we're going back to selling beige Camry's instead". They started as an enthusiast brand promoting individuality and making the cars personal with plenty of options, some good some not so good. The 1rst gen xB was a hit even if a bit pokey. Enter the 2nd gen with less quirky styling, slightly more HP without enough to be worth it (also includes the less MPG of course.) Recently the standard tC got all the goodies previously reserved for the Release Series (and the RS owners were pisssssssssed). And over the last year they've pulled out of everything for current owners that sort-of made up for the brand's shortcomings. Events, give-aways, that sort of thing. Sure they were free (usually) and I think owners would have happily paid $20-30 to attend awesome Scion Exposed events. Instead they're sending cease-n-desist letters to groups and companies that have the word Scion in them.

The Scion brand as a whole is just stupid, sell the cars as a Toyota, maybe bring some life back in to the beige mess it has become. Scion being "edgy" and whatever other buzz words they throw out just feels so forced. Other than the xB and FR-S the Scion line-up has been just as bland as the rest of Toyota anyways.

NOHOME
NOHOME Dork
8/6/13 2:24 p.m.

I will second the whole "Scion" thing as being lame. I see it as too "age group specific" and it is an age that people grow out of quickly once they get out of school. The result is that I end up feeling too old for this car.

I went for the FRS despite the Scion badge only because the Subaru dealers were coming across as slimier than a hagfish.

kanaric
kanaric Reader
8/7/13 2:13 a.m.

One thing about STI badging that people need to realize is that most things not released in the US that are STI badged are not much better than the trim without the badge.

I wouldn't be surprised if a STI BRZ still has around 200hp, upgraded wheels, suspension, and brembo brakes. I think any more than that is wishful thinking. The only STI with a large jump in power like what people want here was the old WRX.

The designer of the car said he wouldn't want it turbocharged in STI trim as well.

Subaru tried that and it nearly killed them. They went back to niche marketing and it works for them. So they have no problem at all selling a low-volume niche vehicle.

They are selling at levels Mitsubishi was in the 90s right now.

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 UltraDork
8/7/13 11:10 a.m.
carguy123 wrote: $19,900 as we were promised and they are out the door all day long, $25,000 and that puts them up against a totally different set of competitors like the WRX and while I really like the BRZ it's not as much a car as a WRX, much less other brand's competitors. I too have been told there's an agreement that Xtimes as many FRSs will be built than BRZs. The car itself is a home run IF they will just build them in sufficient quantities. The only way they'll peter out in 5 years is if they don't build but a few each year.

I have a feeling these will die down just like the 350z/370z and the already forgotten Genesis (although the new GRM reminded us it's still around).

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