Building a New Garage..

I read your article about building a garage. There may be easier and cheaper ways.. I.C.F's Insolated concrete forms.. If you can build with Leggo's you can build with ICF's. They are just big foam blocks that go together like Leggo's. and weigh but a few pounds each. Add some rebar (which fit in the nylon slots made for rebar) and pump in concrete.. Yes I over simplified it a bit neglecting to mention that you need to build some scaffolding around it to brace it during the pour. You rent the scaffolding from the company selling the forms(in my case they included free with the purchase of the forms). The full details of how to do it were in the video they gave me, I suppose now days you down load that sort of thing.
With practically no experience at all I was able to set the forms in a weekend..

Once the walls are up you can buy roof truces several places or build your own.. It's only complex if you are afraid of a triangle.. My no math method was I laid things out on the ground. figured out the required angles by means of an angle finder (about $10). Once you build one you have a pattern to build all you need..

Sure there are details and things I haven't mentioned but it's about as simple as can be. Most of which the video covers.. Windows and doors are simple. I used mill sawn white Oak to form the rough openings because it was cheaper than pressure treated. (your choice). What isn't covered is checked by the guy who sold me the forms who came out and supervised before the pour.

The advantage of ICF's is superior insolation. Absolute fire resistance, no rot and no issue with earthquakes (the rebar) It's also extremely easy to sheet rock, and side or stucco over the outside foam with a product called drivet.

Another solution is what are called freezer panels or SIP's (structural Insolated Panel) They are sheets of plywood or OSB (oriented strand board) over foam panels.. You can have whole walls made at once and simply hauled to your site.. Then you cut out the rough openings for doors and windows and tip them up into place.. I didn't go the whole wall approach I used nothing longer than 30 foot X 8 foot and joined them together..

Finally if you really want a place of pride you can do as I did.. I built a timberframe. Also called a post and beam.. It's how barns used to be built. That is more complex and time consuming but actually can be cheaper if you don't count your labor..

Huh??,you built your garage with ICf,SIPS or timber framed your garage your very unclear.

I'm a licensed carpenter since the late 80's and have built using all 3 methods,Icf is pretty easy if your building a box but can get tricky quick adding corners.

I just did 2 projects with SIP panels that included floors/walls and roofs,I personally would rather frame with sticks then use that E36 M3.You don't just stand the panels up and cut the openings out...much labour to burn out the foam add all the framing within the sheathing that's required.I found the entire process very frustrating at times as the twits at the factory have a habit of making the 2 sheets on the same panel out of square with each other.

Big fun trying to pound panels together that hit each other in places they shouldn't screwing up your dimensions/plumb/level etc etc.

I'm currently building my own home and garage,I went Nudura ICF for the house with the additional foam inserts prior to pouring giving me an R37 wall system.I couldn't justify the additional cost(its significant!)to ICF the garage as well,its 2x6 framed and will be blown insulation and 2" SM foam board on the exterior for an R32 wall.By far that's the most cost effective wall system with a decent R value I could come up with.

The house is ICF to save me time to build it(I'm mostly alone in this),its quiet inside and at nearly R40 and zero thermal bridging should be able to heat it with bean burrito diet.

Not even close IMO to being worth the effort to build your own trusses,with the cost of engineering that's going to be required,the dead flat space needed to build them along with the effort why bother.

After building trusses I can say with great confidence, don't build trusses.

Does it have 120 windows?

kevlarcorolla wrote: Huh??,you built your garage with ICf,SIPS or timber framed your garage your very unclear.

I've been to Frenchy's house, it's quite an impressive place but hard to describe - the garage is in the basement of his house, which is a combination of ICF, SIPs, and timber frame. The trusses are part of the timber frame structure, they're exposed big beams mortised and pegged together.

As for SIPs, your experience must apparently vary depending on the supplier. I watched my next door neighbor build a very nice detached garage from SIPS about ten years ago. The individual sections went together very quickly and without much effort, and all doors, windows, and electrical outlets were pre-cut. With the help of a crane truck the basic structure was done in two or three days, and then it was ready for the usual finishing work (roofing, siding, etc.) It's very solid, and the insulation qualities are great. It's also very quiet inside (his wife has an art studio on the second floor of the garage.) Based on his place, I'd do the same thing in a second if I were to build a new house or garage.

ICF blocks fascinate me except for one concern.. buried EPS foam is a great place for insects and rodents. Detailing the underground portion seems critical.

In reply to stuart in mn:

Dunno,the system we used was just plain 'ol panels that we needed to cut for every opening etc.Yes straight panels CAN go together very quickly....if they are square with each other or you don't care about the little things like dimensions or being plum and level.

One project used a flat roof and the other sloped,both sucked to drive together because of the very sticky glue/caulking that's supplied.Using a 4x4 screwed to a 2x8 to fit in the panel to drive them together with a sledge hammer and busting the 4x4 and 2x8 in half before moving the panel the required 1-1/2".....I didn't make enough money to work that hard for that little gain.

Already told the boss to not send me to any future SIP jobs.

In reply to OHSCrifle:

In my case I'm a single floor with infloor radiant heat so the inside of the building is backfilled with compacted fill,I used 12" concrete blocks up to 10" below the floor height and ICF sits on the block.

Saved about 10k over ICF from the footings up without the insect thing,I'll be using a metal flashing and caulking under the siding at that intersection to ensure no future issues.

In my experience in fixing lots of Ant damage....keep the water out and there's no reason for the ants to move in.Every single time there's been ant damage its because of a piss poor flashing job at a door or especially at an attached deck.

kevlarcorolla wrote: Huh??,you built your garage with ICf,SIPS or timber framed your garage your very unclear. I'm a licensed carpenter since the late 80's and have built using all 3 methods,Icf is pretty easy if your building a box but can get tricky quick adding corners. I just did 2 projects with SIP panels that included floors/walls and roofs,I personally would rather frame with sticks then use that E36 M3.You don't just stand the panels up and cut the openings out...much labour to burn out the foam add all the framing within the sheathing that's required.I found the entire process very frustrating at times as the twits at the factory have a habit of making the 2 sheets on the same panel out of square with each other. Big fun trying to pound panels together that hit each other in places they shouldn't screwing up your dimensions/plumb/level etc etc. I'm currently building my own home and garage,I went Nudura ICF for the house with the additional foam inserts prior to pouring giving me an R37 wall system.I couldn't justify the additional cost(its significant!)to ICF the garage as well,its 2x6 framed and will be blown insulation and 2" SM foam board on the exterior for an R32 wall.By far that's the most cost effective wall system with a decent R value I could come up with. The house is ICF to save me time to build it(I'm mostly alone in this),its quiet inside and at nearly R40 and zero thermal bridging should be able to heat it with bean burrito diet. Not even close IMO to being worth the effort to build your own trusses,with the cost of engineering that's going to be required,the dead flat space needed to build them along with the effort why bother.

The foundation is ICF's and it has not only plenty of corners but the portico is 1/2 round The walls are a double timberframe. That is here in America we put timbers on the inside to show off the joinery, while over in Europe they put timbers on the outside to show off the timbers..

I choose to do both. My outer timbers are all black walnut chosen because of it's decay resistance. then are the S.I.P.'s and inner timbers are all white oak (except the master bedroom which I felt due to it overlooking the lake with a large picture window could stand the darkening effect).

As for making trusses, It really was simple, I used two timbers pinched together at the top and spread the bottom out wide enough to span the required distance. I snapped a chalk line and that was the angle I cut the timbers at.

OHSCrifle wrote: ICF blocks fascinate me except for one concern.. buried EPS foam is a great place for insects and rodents. Detailing the underground portion seems critical.

Then buy the EPS foam with Boron, (borax?) in it to prevent ant infestation.. Ants/rtodents bite on it and then die..

kevlarcorolla wrote: In reply to stuart in mn: Dunno,the system we used was just plain 'ol panels that we needed to cut for every opening etc.Yes straight panels CAN go together very quickly....if they are square with each other or you don't care about the little things like dimensions or being plum and level. One project used a flat roof and the other sloped,both sucked to drive together because of the very sticky glue/caulking that's supplied.Using a 4x4 screwed to a 2x8 to fit in the panel to drive them together with a sledge hammer and busting the 4x4 and 2x8 in half before moving the panel the required 1-1/2".....I didn't make enough money to work that hard for that little gain. Already told the boss to not send me to any future SIP jobs.

Yeh putting SIP's together with the sticky glue in the subzero weather I did required a bit of messing about, by the second panel I quit and just screwed a couple of 2X4 blocks on each one and used bar clamps to pull them together.. I'd then run the screws into them and unscrew the wood blocks

patgizz wrote: Does it have 120 windows?

No only 105 but several are interior windows.

In reply to frenchyd:

We also changed tactics,trouble is that glue is spec'd and provided by the SIP manufacture so deleting it completely means not meeting the engineering requirements for assembly.

We resorted to 3 big globs per each end of each panel,reduced the effort to pull/pound together enough to make it just bearable.Also made a pass with the power planer on each panel spline to reduce the effort as well.

I still don't want to build anything else with SIP panels.....

a picture is worth a thousand words ......grasshoppers

In reply to 759NRNG:

I work with tools not a selfie stick.

kevlarcorolla wrote: In reply to stuart in mn: Dunno,the system we used was just plain 'ol panels that we needed to cut for every opening etc.Yes straight panels CAN go together very quickly....if they are square with each other or you don't care about the little things like dimensions or being plum and level. One project used a flat roof and the other sloped,both sucked to drive together because of the very sticky glue/caulking that's supplied.Using a 4x4 screwed to a 2x8 to fit in the panel to drive them together with a sledge hammer and busting the 4x4 and 2x8 in half before moving the panel the required 1-1/2".....I didn't make enough money to work that hard for that little gain. Already told the boss to not send me to any future SIP jobs.

Early on I decided that there would be places where square plum and level would be critical and places where I would intentionally ignore those edicts..

For example interior walls if the top is set back a couple of degrees it makes doors self closing.. 2&1/4 degree is perfect to overcome the slight resistance of the door latch spring and close with a very satisfying soft click. Yes it required creative solutions in corners etc.. Nothing overly complex but gave me a chance to develop some skills..

Other places I intentionally used curved or wavy boards. If you go to Europe you will see how highly prized the character of wood that has such wane, curves, and other "flaws" are. Only here in America do we want houses devoid of such uniqueness.. I suppose it makes it much easier and faster to assemble. and speed means cheaper assembly costs..

So many here in America know the price of everything and the value of nothing..

frenchyd wrote: So many here in America know the price of everything and the value of nothing..

That's approaching wisdom right there!

frenchyd wrote: Yes I over simplified it a bit ...

We certainly agree on that point!!

BTW... rebar is absolutely NOT a preventative measure for earthquakes (by itself).

Just adding more rebar is not a recipe for building an earthquake resistant structure. You don't resist earthquakes by making buildings more rigid. You resist earthquakes by designing building to MOVE (in designed ways), and respond to the moving of the earth. More advanced systems include things like shear walls, base isolation, energy dissipation devices, etc.

In reply to kevlarcorolla: no selfie stick here boss, just the dinosaur canon sd750 powershot when a milestone has been reached

frenchyd wrote:

kevlarcorolla wrote: In reply to stuart in mn: Dunno,the system we used was just plain 'ol panels that we needed to cut for every opening etc.Yes straight panels CAN go together very quickly....if they are square with each other or you don't care about the little things like dimensions or being plum and level. One project used a flat roof and the other sloped,both sucked to drive together because of the very sticky glue/caulking that's supplied.Using a 4x4 screwed to a 2x8 to fit in the panel to drive them together with a sledge hammer and busting the 4x4 and 2x8 in half before moving the panel the required 1-1/2".....I didn't make enough money to work that hard for that little gain. Already told the boss to not send me to any future SIP jobs.

Early on I decided that there would be places where square plum and level would be critical and places where I would intentionally ignore those edicts.. For example interior walls if the top is set back a couple of degrees it makes doors self closing.. 2&1/4 degree is perfect to overcome the slight resistance of the door latch spring and close with a very satisfying soft click. Yes it required creative solutions in corners etc.. Nothing overly complex but gave me a chance to develop some skills.. Other places I intentionally used curved or wavy boards. If you go to Europe you will see how highly prized the character of wood that has such wane, curves, and other "flaws" are. Only here in America do we want houses devoid of such uniqueness.. I suppose it makes it much easier and faster to assemble. and speed means cheaper assembly costs.. So many here in America know the price of everything and the value of nothing..

So how many decades have you been building this thing??

I recently headed up a 2 yr project that we relocated and reassembled a 120 yr old barn and turned it into a 3 story cottage(plus basement) on a private lake on the owners 3000+ acre property.It has nearly every modern amenity you can imagine,ready for a better homes and gardens photo shoot and worth many many millions of dollars.

A very challenging build to say the least.

I still however can't fathom the logic involved that thought building walls out of plumb just so the door self closes made sense,sort of like deciding to build a house with an inverted peak roof just so the rain doesn't drip off the eaves.

In reply to kevlarcorolla:

I agree. If I saw doors out of plumb, I wouldn't think "Oh- how wonderful. This guy actually spent the time setting each door carefully 2 1/4 degrees out of plumb so the doors would self-close". Instead, I would think "Too bad he couldn't hang his doors right"

Self-closing hinges FTFW.

In reply to kevlarcorolla: It's a matter of training versus reason. As I said, some interior walls interior walls were out of plumb. The reason I did it was to ensure there would always be this fantasic view of the lake.

I suppose I could simply insist that all doors be closed and policed them to ensure compliance.. Or put self closing hydraulic mechanisms and accepted the added work of opening the doors (and complexity) as the cost of maintaining that view. Instead I accepted the slight out of plumb wall. (that decades later no one has ever noticed)

In the late 1970's a friend went looking to buy his starter home. He brought along a framing square, a level and plumb bob. It took him more than 5 years to find a home that was completely plumb, square, and true.. As a result instead of paying $20,000- 30,000 he paid $55,000 for the same size/features house.

I spent over three decades selling construction equipment to the housing industry. I know how little time is devoted to checking plumb square and true and how much time is spent using building techniques to compensate for less than perfection.. How many decades have I been building this place? Well I started buying the timbers and wood in 1998 and according to actuarial tables I've got two more decades left before I shuffle off this mortal coil.. With luck I'll finish it the day before they start digging my grave..

What are your hobbies? I mean do you like to play golf, race cars, watch TV, paint, carve? Well I like to work on my home.. To date I've got over 30,000 man hours building it with at least another 5000 to go.. why so much when a normal home from start to finish requires 2500-3000 manhours?

Art! Instead of banging together a bunch of 2X4's I worked with hardwood timbers, cutting mortise and tenion instead of pulling the trigger on a nail gun.. Exposing the joinery rather than covering it with sheetrock.. You can buy a car off the showroom floor cheaper than you can restore one, the purchase is done quickly while the restoration may take a decade..

SVreX wrote: In reply to kevlarcorolla: I agree. If I saw doors out of plumb, I wouldn't think "Oh- how wonderful. This guy actually spent the time setting each door carefully 2 1/4 degrees out of plumb so the doors would self-close". Instead, I would think "Too bad he couldn't hang his doors right" Self-closing hinges FTFW.

The doors are plumb to the wall, the wall is slightly off plumb.. (decades later no one has noticed it until I point it out to them..) As for Self closing hinges. We've all heard them used on screen doors when they slam the screen door shut. My method results in a quiet click when the weight of the door overcomes the tension in the door latch. Sort of the difference between a model T Ford door closing and a Rolls Royce..

SVreX wrote: BTW... rebar is absolutely NOT a preventative measure for earthquakes (by itself). Just adding more rebar is not a recipe for building an earthquake resistant structure. You don't resist earthquakes by making buildings more rigid. You resist earthquakes by designing building to MOVE (in designed ways), and respond to the moving of the earth. More advanced systems include things like shear walls, base isolation, energy dissipation devices, etc.

You are correct, there are more advanced methods of dealing with earthquakes.. However adding rebar to concrete does add strength. Hopefully when the big quake that breaks off part of California hit's, it's enough to keep my home here in Minnesota together..