Buy American - After Bailout

"Buying American" is partially what got us into this situation.

By that I mean people who will either only buy American, or heavily favor American cars, because they are American. Because of this GM and such were able to create what by realistic standards were less than impressive vehicles (mostly in the past) and the "faithful" would lap them up.

If everyone would have just bought the best car for them long ago, this problem may never had happened (or at least happened slower).

Tyler H wrote: The people that will hurt the most are the upper-middle-class. The folks that buy new cars every 18 months, amass oceans of debt, have to live in $250k+ McMansions, gotta have their Starbucks and probably don't mow their own lawn are going to hurt. They have enjoyed a decade of opulence, floated on credit and irresponsble consumption.

um, if they have to amass "oceans" of debt, they're not really "upper middle class" they're middle class that think they're upper middle class. there are also poor folks who spend beyond their means to stay with the middle class folks too, and they won't make it either.

There are a few cars I like that the US manufactures build. I'd like to add a new Solstice GXP, new challenger RT or a used C5 corvette to my garage, but I'd have to sleep in whatever I bought and sell the house to pay for it. :)

I never really have liked too many of the foreign cars, but my wife has a Toyota Camry and she likes it a lot. It's a comfortable, practical family car that gets good gas mileage and is actually fun to drive on a track.

It has been relatively trouble free thus far with the odometer just hitting 155000 miles. However, when something does have to be fixed or replaced it's a chunk of change when compared to the cost of parts and repairs of my mustang.

I hope GM makes it through the year. I hope Chrysler can survive at least 3 more months.

Now or in the future, I would buy the vehicle that best fits my needs, wants, and requirements, whether it be domestic or not. Cars cost too much to buy out of loyalty or patriotism. That said, I hope they all survive, as I don't think it will be good for the country if they don't.

ps- I have an '08 Solstice GXP (not sure where it was made), an '07 Accord EX-L V-6 coupe (made in the USA), and an '03 Acura TL Type S (made in the USA). Both Hondas are light years ahead of that Solstice, in quality and refinement, so I'd say the domestics still have a ways to go in that area.

Cotton wrote: You're on a motorsports forum and don't think anything remotely interesting has come out of the big 3 since the 70s? What the hell do you find interesting?

What's the answer to every car question on this forum? Miata. Where's it made? What's the other answer? E30. Where's it made?

This forum itself has decided that the Big 3 don't really have anything interesting to offer. Hell, even the tow vehicle of choice around here is a Honda! At least it's made here, but I don't think it's designed here, and Honda headquarters are still in Japan.

The big 3 occasionally make something interesting. Looking back at all the cars I've owned, from all around the world, I realized that the only cars I've ever bought new were domestic. Not out of any loyalty, but simply because i found them interesting enough to buy ('96 Ford Ranger Splash, '99 Contour SVT, and '02 PT Cruiser Touring edition). All three turned out to be decent cars that did exactly what they were required to do, reliably.

Twin_Cam wrote:

Cotton wrote: You're on a motorsports forum and don't think anything remotely interesting has come out of the big 3 since the 70s? What the hell do you find interesting?

What's the answer to every car question on this forum? Miata. Where's it made? What's the other answer? E30. Where's it made? This forum itself has decided that the Big 3 don't really have anything interesting to offer. Hell, even the tow vehicle of choice around here is a Honda! At least it's made here, but I don't think it's designed here, and Honda headquarters are still in Japan.

I'm not sure what you're smoking, but I don't think the Ridgeline is the GRM forum tow vehicle of choice. Sure, there are a few people on the board that use them, but they are not the majority by far. I mean seriously....the Ridgeline? If you could have any tow vehicle that is what you'd pick? YOU may have decided the big 3 don't have anything to offer, but since when are you the spokesperson for the entire forum? Believe it or not this is a pretty diverse group. I already mentioned I have vehicles from Germany, American, and Japan. Saying the big three have nothing to offer and have never made great cars is rediculous. What cars do you own?

bravenrace wrote: Now or in the future, I would buy the vehicle that best fits my needs, wants, and requirements, whether it be domestic or not. Cars cost too much to buy out of loyalty or patriotism. That said, I hope they all survive, as I don't think it will be good for the country if they don't. ps- I have an '08 Solstice GXP (not sure where it was made), an '07 Accord EX-L V-6 coupe (made in the USA), and an '03 Acura TL Type S (made in the USA). Both Hondas are light years ahead of that Solstice, in quality and refinement, so I'd say the domestics still have a ways to go in that area.

Please expound on how the Hondas are more refined. What do you mean, fit an finish, or function?

It would appear I struck someone's iNerve. Yay Internet!

I was trying to say that the Big 3 have brought all their problems on themselves, and it's because that just about all the cars they make are not up to par with offerings from Japan, Germany, and elsewhere. Not only that, while they were designing bigger and badder Excursions and 3500 dualies and Ram Power Wagons, Japan was designing hybrids and Fits and Yaris' and Versas. And it's coming back to bite them in the ass.

GRM very strongly supported the Ridgeline as a better offering in the truck category than the Ram, 1500, or F150, which is why I mentioned it.

And I didn't say the Big 3 NEVER made great cars, I said they haven't made many worth much since the 70s.

I'm not the spokesman, but you don't have to have a college degree in data analysis to see that whenever there's a "what is the ideal car for me?" thread on this forum it usually ends with Miata or E30. Rarely does it end with "Solstice" or "Cobalt" or "Caliber" or "Focus."

I already mentioned what kind of car I own. It's one that was a perfectly good car, until GM took a larger stake in the design, and then gutted everything that made the car a good, unique car to begin with.

My personal requirements for towing are 5000 pounds. For that reason, the big pickups were not a must. Now, if my requirements were north of 5000 pounds I would still consider a Tundra or Titan first, mainly because of the QC problems I have seen with US built trucks. The only US built trucks that I would consider would be the diesel versions of their 3/4 ton rigs and that would be based strictly on fuel economy, not quality, i.e. I would buy, say, a Duramax 2500 and have lower expectations than I would of the Tundra.

Chrysler has NOTHING that interests me except the Ram diesel pickup under the conditions above. Ford, I like the new Mustang but not enough to drop that kind of coin. GM, the Corvette is pretty cool but its use is so limited that there is no way I could justify it. Given that I'd spend the same money and have the same limited use, I'd buy an Elise.

Now, a Honda Accord or a Camry would be very high on my list for DD's not used for towing. The Mazda 6 ranks up there too but their Ford connection kinda gives me pause. I do like the way they look and drive, though. I could even justify an RX8 (since I can get the wife and the kid in it) and feel better about it than any of the US built stuff, even given teh int3rweb grumblings about engine failures. I guess that's because i understand rotaries pretty well.

I have to agree with the demise of Saturn. It seems to me that GM killed Oldsmobile and then turned around and turned Satrun into exactly what Olds would/could have been.

Look at the end of Olds

Alero/Intrigue = Aura

Bravada = Outlook

Olds Minivan = Saturn Minivan

Aurora = should have been kept, no equal

Olds needed a small car like old Firenza = Ion, Astra

Olds needed a small SUV which does not seem far reaching that they would have given them an Exinox/Torrent = Vue

The personal luxury car of Toranado would have made for a cool Sky coupe. It is a stretch but Toanado = Sky

Saturn should/could be so much more!

Ya know, speaking of GM stuff I think if you are looking at midsized SUVs IMHO the Equinox is pretty sharp looking. I'm sure it comes with all the usual QC issues, though.

we had one of those gmc acadia/chevy traverse/buick enclave things on a course in canada. it had an anemic v6 and fwd. one hill we had to go up, it couldn't make it up going forward, i had to take it up in reverse, and even then with it boarded, it couldn't spin the tires in the dirt and barely had enough power to push the POS up the hill.

the kicker was that we also had an awd ford flex that we figured would have some trouble on the rougher areas of the trail, and it had no issues whatsoever. was also much better looking than the buick POS too

Back on towing, if 5k is the limit, the answer is P71, besides, it is the only domestic offering in the GRM holy trinity. but we can only get these used.

no I won't.. My time is too valuable to be running some american POS back to the dealer for fixes all the time...

that said.. I won't buy a japanese car made in any of the american factories anymore.. too many friends on the inside with quality issues..... They used to be good, but most of the big Japanese companies grew too fast for their infrastructures recently.

My 2007 Rav4(wifes car) has a Japanese vin.

If I had the money, GM supplies a car for any of my needs, and I like them all equally, or more than their foreign counterparts.

Sports Cars- Saturn Sky and Chevrolet Corvette (even the Z-51 package base model would be great)

Sedans- Cobalt SS Turbo (actually I want the Coupe more), and Chevrolet Malibu (for the Missus)

If I were in the market for a pickup, I would get the new Ford SVT Raptor (when it comes out)...I know, it isn't GM, but it is Big 3

Hmm. None of the three domestic vehicles I purchased new (and mentioned above) needed running back to the dealer for anything in the entire time I owned them. The Ranger I had for 3 years, the Contour for the same, and the PT was owned for 5 years.

Those of us that love British, Italian, and German cars have no real room to talk about QC...

Boy, I must be lucky I have never had any reliability issues with any of the cars I have bought. Having worked for several company's who have bought several new Gm and Ford trucks and vans over the years I don't recall ever having any reliability issues with any of them gas or diesel. And its not like they where babied either. Worked hard put away wet barely got regular maintenance and still not a whimper ever. We bought three ford e-150 vans in 2000 and four years later they where still going strong with over 200k rough and tumble miles.

Personally I think the biggest mistake I ever made was getting a fwd vehicle. I absolutely can not stand it. But my GP has never ever let me down, dead solid reliable even with my abuse and it's just getting ready to turn 63k. But what choices are there for an affordable rwd car? The new G8 is awfully tempting but it's still out of my price range. Magnum and chargers are turds unless you get a $hemi$ and BMW is big bucks.

I think I have just decided not to ever buy another vehicle built after 1980 foreign or domestic. And I will never buy a fwd car again.

i put about 140k on my 98 f-150 (built at the KCMO Assembly plan) from 2000 to 2006. tough miles, too. at one point the truck flew 2-3feet off the ground and across 2 lanes of cross street. it went nearly 100k miles before there was any major service needed, a battery and alternator at about 94k.

the only maintenance it got was oil changes and occaisional air filter cleaning. i'm pretty sure it still had the original serpentine belt on it when it was sold last year with 155k on the clock.

Back to the question at hand. . . Yes. I would consider a Domestic Vehicle. The G8 is the first one to pop into my head as a great cross country traveller for the wife and myself. Solstice as an auto-x'er/track day car.

Reality is I am not buying a new vehicle anytime soon (if I can help it). The old Accent the wife drives has 155k miles and we're planning on it's replacement in another 4 years (somewhere around 200K). The Elantra I auto-x'd and bough new isn't scheduled for replacement for another 6 years. Should be another 100+k miles. The GMC? Well let's say 15 years and 300k is the current plan.

When I do, my mind wanders to the the other asian brands (Kia/Hyundai), the other Japanese (Suzuki) and GM. I've owned versions of each of those brands and cannot be happier. I WILL NOT even look at another toyoduh or a honduh. If I want to piss away that much money on an inferior product, someone check me into the mental ward because I went off the deep end. The last Toyoduh about put me in the ER (fire) and poorhouse at the same time.

The sheer amount of lunacy that my P71 went through this year with NO failures after 120K of Police work shows that powertrain quality is doing just fine. I find no quality shortcomings in last 5-10 years worth of Big 2 (Chrysler does have a lot of turds to answer for). When I was doing mechanic work far more VW's and other German cars came in busted then anything else.

But to answer the question, I am not (nor will I probably ever) in the market for a new car. Now, one or two years old sure. That being said, I would absolutely buy American now or even after a bailout. However, unlike some ignorant people here, I do not view car manufacturers like political parties. I choose my car purchases based on the best fit for my needs, in my price range.

For example, the Japanese have not a single suitable replacement for my P71, though I would take a Pontiac G8 in a heartbeat. On the other hand, I feel like there is no current offering the equal of my RX-7 (outside of an Exige) from anybody. A Soltice GXP certainly fits the bill, but it's not a hardtop (yet), so a larger RX-8 will be the closest to a true hardtop sports car.

It's a case by case basis for me, and it should be for others too. I hate when people irrationally lump an entire group of something into one category based on some perceived slight of long ago or a specific model/item/bill whatever.

Twin_Cam wrote:

Cotton wrote: You're on a motorsports forum and don't think anything remotely interesting has come out of the big 3 since the 70s? What the hell do you find interesting?

What's the answer to every car question on this forum? Miata. Where's it made? What's the other answer? E30. Where's it made?

...yea, but how many GRMers own a NEW Miata or NEW 3-series? Almost none

^I bet there are some.

I'll be on the market for a new car in 1-2 years. I'm tired of wrenching on used old cars that are supposed to be my daily drivers. I'm looking for a fun to drive, sporty car with a hatchback or wagon so that there is reasonable utility and I can fit bikes, xmas trees and whatever else I might want back there. Plus it should have great fuel economy of close to or more than 30 MPG

Problem is that neither GM or Ford make such a car. The only option is the Opel/Saturn Astra which seems like a good car but... The old Focus was kinda nice but wtf was Ford thinking with the current model?!

1) the Mazda3 is better looking, fun to drive and I can get a huge discount (dealer invoice) thanks to my Mazda Motorsports membership. 2) VW is coming out with a turbo diesel Golf/Rabbit that will get 40+ MPG and be fun to drive.

I'm sure that there are also a bunch of other cars coming to market in the next 2-4 years that will be fun to drive and more fuel efficient that what we have now. It almost seems pointless to buy anything as the whole auto industry is in a huge transition in response to changing market conditions.

I like the G8 but its bigger, heavier and thirstier than I need for a DD kind of car.

The Vette is awesome but I have a 93 RX7 that is paid for and gives me all the thrills I could possible want.

The Solstice/Sky is nice for anyone looking for a fun sports car but it has less usable space than a Miata.

The new Fusion and the Malibu are actually reasonably nice looking but probably not much fun to drive.

It seems like GM and Ford were turning the corner somewhat with regards to interesting cars. However, having never driven them I wonder how they are in terms of fun to drive as comparable Euro/Jap cars. From what I've seen out there years ago, the US auto makers often failed on the fun to drive aspects.

The newest generations from GM and Ford are every bit as fun to drive as it's competitors IMO. I would take the new malibu over the accord/camry personally. . . BUT I would take the new Sonata over all 3. Longer warranty, more car for less money. . . . hard to ignore.

^^^^ I like the Fusion very much. I find the 2.3L engine a bit buzzy but other than that everyone says nice things about the same engine when it is fit into a Mazda3. I have only driven the rental car version which always has an automatic but even with that it is more than adiquate. I do wish it came in a wagon version.