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  Nov. 5, 2008 2:59 p.m. evildky Dork

  So I keep having this thought about the challenge autocross. There are expert drivers avialable to help even the field as it's a contest of builders not drivers. By the end of the day the experts have had a zillion trips through the course and know every turn and surface deviation like the back of their own hand. Most of the fast cars are the ones that run late in the day, I've heard claim of surface temps for a reason but if you are going to use the pro the end of the day is the time as he would have had the most passes. Anyone who has been to an evolution autocross school can tell you the repeated use of that same course really lets you perfect every turn and transition. I know the drivers have to adjust to all the various sorts of cars they drive throughout the day and some builders will have a driver make all the runs in their car back to back to back to help let the pro get more in tune with that particular car. A few thoughts on hwo to balance things a bit

  Give the pro's additional access to the course, I know it's tough just gettting the course up and running and available for walks but the have the course available say an hour earlier to give the pro's a chance to make a few laps in any car. A rental focus, a daily driven miata whatever, just so the pro's can get a chance to be as sharp for the early cars as they are for the later cars. Myabe the pro's are just so good ti won't matter and maybe I'm way off base with this but thats my thought on it.

  Give us the freedom to make more runs. I know you are thinking huge lines and a contest that never ends but the drags don't seem to be an issue. Staging lane #1 for cars that have no passes, staging lane #2 for cars with at least one but no more than 5, staging lane #3 for cars with more than 5 runs, when there are no cars in lane 1, lane 2 opens up, when lane 2 is empty lane 3 opens up. pretty much the same idea behind the drag race. I know it mkakes time keeping more difficult but if the official time is given to the driver as a print out upon exiting the course it would be the same as the drags, just turn in your fast ticket. it just seem to me there was a lot of time int he moring when no-one was running, If I could have taken more runs, I would have.

  so now tell me why I'm wrong ;)

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  Nov. 5, 2008 3:13 p.m. JmfnB UltimaDork

  Eric Storhok whooped the ACES asses a few years ago and if I recall his fast run was earlier in the day. I may be wrong, I was crying in Michigan when he did it.

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  Nov. 5, 2008 3:19 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

  We would probably have time for 6 runs at the current participation level.

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  Nov. 5, 2008 3:57 p.m. SVreX UltraDork

  I'm not sure Alan McCrispin could have taken much more!

  Seriously, he had something like 6 of the top 10 runs.

  If 50 cars are entered, they collectively make 250 passes.

  If half those are done by pros, and there are 5 pro drivers, each makes 25 passes.
  

  However, the breakdown is not even.

  Some of the drivers clearly drive more than others. It wouldn't shock me if some of them had to make as many as 50 passes.

  When you consider how difficult some of these beasts are to drive, that's a heck of a workout.

  While they may know the course better, there is also the risk that it rains in the afternoon (common in FL). I think it's a roll of the dice with the pros.

  BTW- I REALLY appreciate the pros, and love seeing what they can milk out of my piece of crap cars.

  Another thought- How about a non-pro driven class? (Evildky, you may appreciate this). Why not a special award for the highest placing car that NEVER utilized the assistance of a pro?

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  Nov. 5, 2008 4:10 p.m. alfadriver Reader

  JmfnB wrote:

  Eric Storhok whooped the ACES asses a few years ago and if I recall his fast run was earlier in the day. I may be wrong, I was crying in Michigan when he did it.

  Correct. 4th out of 5 runs, morning session.

  Even after that, I drove one other car. To be honest, one has to give the "pros" a lot of credit to jump into a car that they have no idea about, and give it all they have. It was like starting all over again.

  Yes, you'll know where the bumps and bad traction are, but not knowing the ins and outs of braking and turning for that particular car- it can be pretty hard to deal with.

  The later runs "can" be faster, but they can be worse, too- it's very depedant on the surface and how it changes.

  I'd rather see more builder/drivers, since I was one of them, but it is a contest about the cars, not the drivers. We pretty much made the call well before the event, since we've done a lot of tuning on the car, and I knew it pretty well....

  Anyway, non-pros can win. I have evidence.... :)

  Eric

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  Nov. 5, 2008 8:37 p.m. Per Schroeder Technical Editor/Advertising Director

  Eric should bring a car back to see if that can still happen. (and yes that's a challenge....)

  Per

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  Nov. 5, 2008 10:39 p.m. alfadriver Reader

  Per Schroeder wrote:

  Eric should bring a car back to see if that can still happen. (and yes that's a challenge....)

  Per

  yea... I seriously doubt I would bring a project that I own. At the moment, I'm 3 cars deep in other projects, and adding another would kill me well before my wife would.

  Perhaps if a team formed close enough to me. AC and JB are just a bit far for realistic help that I can do. Perhaps when basto does one in Ypsi...

  I know I have plans in my head- one for two different cars... But this vintage racer MUST GET DONE....

  E-

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  Nov. 5, 2008 11:11 p.m. evildky Dork

  .....and I think the GRM staffers should all run the course on tricycles

  I know the pro's have the disadvantage of shifting from car to car, but sometimes you luck out and have a pro driving something similar to whay he is most experienced with. So bringing a miata or mr2 prepped to a lesser degree might yeild better result as that driver has more experience in that kind of car and adjusts to it quickly. Like I said, adding the staging lanes would allow for more runs in less time as the course would never stop (in theroy) as it seemed to do so much in the morning this year. I just figure it's an effective use of the time available. The drags have unlimited passes but the staging lanes spend a lot of time empty.

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  Nov. 5, 2008 11:44 p.m. admc58 New Reader

  Eric, were you driving the Alfa? That was a well prepaired car drivin by someone who knew it well and that is a tough combination to top..Kudos!

  This year I made over 50 runs plus course setup and practice laps. By the end of the day I was wiped but would have gladly driven anything I was asked to.

  As far a Pro Drivers are concerned our job is to determine as quickly as possible what each car needs to get its best time. By the time we have walked the course and driven it 3-4 times we are pretty sure what is the best theortical line then we make adjustments to that for what each car needs.

  The root thing I am doing is evaluating in real time the feed back from each tire to deterime the available grip and how to best achieve Max acceleration, braking and cornering. Everything else is a distraction.

  Usually I have a very good idea of what each car will do by the 3rd to 4th turn in the 1st run and the rest of that run is validation.

  The 2nd run is practice.

  The 3rd run is where I try to set a fast lap.

  Runs 4 & 5 are where I make minor changes to my driving to eek out the best possible lap that I can.

  Mostly I try to just drive what I am given and I don't usually ask for major setup changes unless there is a big problem. Mostly I'll just ask for air pressure adjustments.

  Something that might be fun is to have a demonstration car to give all of the team members rides in. I would love doing that.

  Also the Pro Drivers could do right seat duty coaching the builders/teams in driving technique.

  I have to say, this event is by far the most fun of any that I do all year. Hanging out will the teams in the paddock is just as much fun as driving the cars (well almost). I consider it an absolute honor to drive the cars you all build and thank you all from the bottom of my heart. Thank you Per & Tim for inviting me back each year.

  Alan McCrispin

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  Nov. 6, 2008 8:05 a.m. bluej HalfDork

  hmm... what if there was a T&T hour at the beginning of the day? no more than a run or two and no times. simply to dial in the cars for the day and let the non pros have a little more look at the course? just brainstorming..

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  Nov. 6, 2008 8:27 a.m. fastasleep New Reader

  I like the idea, Dave. And I never really got to tell the magazine how impressed I was with our driver!

  -Les

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  Nov. 6, 2008 9:29 a.m. alfadriver Reader

  admc58 wrote:

  Eric, were you driving the Alfa? That was a well prepaired car drivin by someone who knew it well and that is a tough combination to top..Kudos!

  Indeed. I had a great build team, and an awesome support team. If you'll recall, we grenaded our main trans at the drag strip, and swapped it that afternoon (on the pictures that shuffle through the front page, there's pictures of us doing the work...).

  But for sure, I can relate to the pro drivers, getting into the V8Vair. That car was a total blast to drive (and I really like to give AC a hard time about the brakes.... ;)), but was SO different from my car that it took some time to adjust to.

  For sure, there's a point to brining a car that's almost identical to the pro's main car- that would help a lot. But all in all, you all are so good that by run 3, you know what the car will do for the most part.

  BTW, that was 4 challenges ago. So I'm pretty honored that people still remember that. :)

  Eric

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  Nov. 6, 2008 10:02 a.m. Tom Heath Production Editor

  evildky wrote:

  .....and I think the GRM staffers should all run the course on tricycles

  I'm down. New guy FTW!

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  Nov. 6, 2008 10:19 a.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

  A tricycle is the only way I could be competitive.

  Any chance that could be expanded to include Big Wheels or (better yet) Green Machines? Of course the Green Machine has an unfair advantage. They rule.

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  Nov. 6, 2008 12:05 p.m. bluej HalfDork

  Tim Baxter wrote:

  A tricycle is the only way I could be competitive.

  Any chance that could be expanded to include Big Wheels or (better yet) Green Machines? Of course the Green Machine has an unfair advantage. They rule.

  hmm... grm staffers all building and competing with the best power wheels they can for $200.9? that sounds fun

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  Nov. 6, 2008 12:14 p.m. Tim Baxter Online Editor

  Hmmm... Power wheels... now there's an idea. That way I wouldn't have to pedal. Anything involving pedalling gives David an unfair advantage.

  I used to race BMX bikes, but that was a long time ago. I've abused my cardio-pulmonary system for decades since.

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  Nov. 6, 2008 2:55 p.m. Tom Heath Production Editor

  Oooh...power wheels... I smell an ultra-top-secret build at Tom's house...24volts and a washer motor...

  BMX would be way to fitness-dependent.

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  Nov. 6, 2008 3:19 p.m. AngryCorvair Dork

  alfadriver wrote:

  Per Schroeder wrote:

  Eric should bring a car back to see if that can still happen. (and yes that's a challenge....)

  Per

  Perhaps if a team formed close enough to me. AC and JB are just a bit far for realistic help that I can do. Perhaps when basto does one in Ypsi...

  i'm in plymouth township, probably only 20 minutes from your house to mine. if you buy it, i will help build it.

  hey alfa, wanna buy the 944V8?

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  Nov. 6, 2008 5:20 p.m. alfadriver Reader

  AngryCorvair wrote:

  alfadriver wrote:

  Per Schroeder wrote:

  Eric should bring a car back to see if that can still happen. (and yes that's a challenge....)

  Per

  Perhaps if a team formed close enough to me. AC and JB are just a bit far for realistic help that I can do. Perhaps when basto does one in Ypsi...

  i'm in plymouth township, probably only 20 minutes from your house to mine. if you buy it, i will help build it.

  hey alfa, wanna buy the 944V8?

  Come on, AC, we've talked about this before. The answer to everyone's car question....

  And, no, buying a car isn't in the cards, either- paint job on the '74, Chrome for the '60, and gotta get started on the '59 someday.

  Plus I just hope to keep my job....

  E-

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