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spin_out
spin_out Reader
9/1/16 8:08 a.m.

So I read this in the rules section of The Challenge: "2016 will be the third year of a three-year car preparation rules freeze. Car preparation rules from this year will be the same as the previous two."

So I thought maybe we should be discussing rule changes or lack of changes. I'd like to see the simple roll bar budget exempt. I thought it was in the past as long as it was not tied to any suspension pick up points. I do remember people voting for it to go away, but it all happened so quickly.

Anyway we are currently running a Miata, and I'd feel better if it had a budget exempt basic roll bar. Otherwise we will probably end up making one of possibly lower quality.

It also seems like the cars are getting faster each year, and I assume we will be locking in the rules for another 3 years. Think about how much faster they may be 3 years from now..

Stampie
Stampie HalfDork
9/1/16 8:21 a.m.

Just because I'm the type that believes in creative interpretation of rules, it it does tie into the suspension would the whole cage count towards budget or just the piece that ties into the suspension?

stan_d
stan_d Dork
9/1/16 8:38 a.m.

As long as you are looking for exception what about a firebottle system? It provides no performance advantage but pure safety related. I think about these things the older I get.

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman HalfDork
9/1/16 9:44 a.m.

In reply to spin_out:

I feel like I tried hard to push for that rule last time to no avail. Basically being told doesn't matter if you can't make your own on find someone to help you make one you obviously won't be competing near the top.

Really takes out a convertible as an option if all you know how to do to go fast is install nitrous.

I am fine with the current rule set. I would like to change some of the wording on the recoup rules. Currently it still reads you could buy a $50 car and recoup $1008 from that car. Doesn't list a limit per parts deal or car like the old days where you could only recoup what you paid for a certain part.

wheels777
wheels777 SuperDork
9/1/16 9:48 a.m.
spin_out wrote: It also seems like the cars are getting faster each year, and I assume we will be locking in the rules for another 3 years. Think about how much faster they may be 3 years from now..

That point is why the costs need to stay in. How else are you going to slow folks down if you continue to let the exemptions increase. The current exemptions were put in place when there were primarily safety issues with the public, tires coming off, crimped brakes, etc. The belts and padding are level to all. Bars and cages are not level to all, you only need it if you are fast.

Cages and bars need to count. We have a great set of rules.

wheels777
wheels777 SuperDork
9/1/16 9:51 a.m.
Andy Neuman wrote: In reply to spin_out: I feel like I tried hard to push for that rule last time to no avail. Basically being told doesn't matter if you can't make your own on find someone to help you make one you obviously won't be competing near the top. Really takes out a convertible as an option if all you know how to do to go fast is install nitrous.

The fast guys all have the cages and bars counted toward their budget. I have offered to install some if the owner would help, no takers. Denny has installed some for folks, no issues.

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman HalfDork
9/1/16 10:07 a.m.

In reply to wheels777:

I think it is a good rule and there are benefits beyond safety in most cages. We don't need you to get any faster. With current parts availability and pricing I'm sure you'll find a way to go even faster than before.

Sometimes I think the high end of our field deters some new participants because they feel the need to be competitive. When in reality the event is a gathering of the most helpful group of people and competition available in motorsports. Everyone in the community should try to make it at least one time even if they aren't competing.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
9/1/16 10:08 a.m.
stan_d wrote: As long as you are looking for exception what about a firebottle system? It provides no performance advantage but pure safety related. I think about these things the older I get.

Those are already exempt:

These safety items are budget-exempt: seat belt or harness; fire extinguisher; roll bar padding; wheel lugs, studs and bolts; and your first four tires. Brake friction materials, lines, calipers, master cylinders, rotors and drums may be replaced with fresh ones that are functional duplicates. The purpose of this rule is to allow for fresh brake components, not to allow for budget shenanigans. For example, original brake parts cannot be sold and then rebought to take advantage of this allowance. Brake fluid is also budget-exempt.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
9/1/16 10:09 a.m.

And thanks for starting this thread, spin_out. As always, we'll have a town hall at the event, too, where we can discuss changes.

stroker
stroker SuperDork
9/1/16 10:17 a.m.

Was the MiniVan issue ever definitively addressed?

Ovid_and_Flem
Ovid_and_Flem Reader
9/1/16 10:37 a.m.

In reply to wheels777:

Kudos to you 777. Admirable coming from a perennial front runner and reigning champ when suggested changes that you oppose would only serve to benefit you. That is truly selfless and is a testament of your desire to keep this event affordable to less talented builders.

My little first time team doesn't have the talent, technological skill, time or tools to compete in the deep end of the pool. But the spirit of the event is what counts most to us. Sorta like Rocky....we just wanna go the distance. Winning ain't everything.

Looking so forward to being a part of this event even if we are backmarkers.

Rick Goolsby
Rick Goolsby Events Manager
9/1/16 10:45 a.m.

In reply to stroker:

Here is a link to the thread that should help answer your questions: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/soccer-mom-challenge-rules/108846/page1/

spin_out
spin_out Reader
9/1/16 10:54 a.m.

It would be nice to discuss any wanted changes before the town meeting so we have a list before we sit down. I can not think up things on the spot.

I'm still in favor of the simplistic roll bar being exempt because in a lightweight Miata it only adds: weight that hurts my performance, and a feeling of safety. We are hoping to run 16.5 seconds in the 1/4 mile. We wont need it for the power we have, we'd more likely need it for the build sitting next to us that might come into our lane. (I'm thinking about Dave Melton's Miata were I think he might have been hit by a college team.)

PseudoSport
PseudoSport Dork
9/1/16 11:00 a.m.
wheels777 wrote:
spin_out wrote: It also seems like the cars are getting faster each year, and I assume we will be locking in the rules for another 3 years. Think about how much faster they may be 3 years from now..

That point is why the costs need to stay in. How else are you going to slow folks down if you continue to let the exemptions increase. The current exemptions were put in place when there were primarily safety issues with the public, tires coming off, crimped brakes, etc. The belts and padding are level to all. Bars and cages are not level to all, you only need it if you are fast.

Cages and bars need to count. We have a great set of rules.

I agree. I like the current rule set.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr SuperDork
9/1/16 11:34 a.m.
spin_out wrote: It would be nice to discuss any wanted changes before the town meeting so we have a list before we sit down. I can not think up things on the spot. I'm still in favor of the simplistic roll bar being exempt because in a lightweight Miata it only adds: weight that hurts my performance, and a feeling of safety. We are hoping to run 16.5 seconds in the 1/4 mile. We wont need it for the power we have, we'd more likely need it for the build sitting next to us that might come into our lane. (I'm thinking about Dave Melton's Miata were I think he might have been hit by a college team.)

This same argument is happening in Chumpcar right now...

Nobody says you can't have a rollcage. You just need to budget for it.

In other words, it is NOT a safety issue. It is a budget issue.

Each participant gets to decide if they want to spend their budget on go fast parts, reliability parts, handling parts, or extra safety items. Choose wisely.

I hope this post didn't come across as an attack (alliteration!). It wasn't meant to be.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
9/1/16 12:41 p.m.

First, glad to see everyone so excited about the event. I know, it's coming up.

Yes, we will again host a town hall meeting during the $2000 Challenge. Have an idea? A question? Write it down now and come prepared. (Think of it as an open-book town hall meeting.) You guys are also free to discuss ideas here on the message board.

To quell any fears, the staff doesn't have any big surprises to unveil.

wheels777
wheels777 SuperDork
9/1/16 11:01 p.m.

Spin Out, The free roll bar/cage debate is now 9 years. In this 7 year old debate (starting on page 2) it led to a "some cars got, some cars didn't" rule set.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/2010-challenge-rules-first-draft/14974/page12/

Needless to say a bunch of folks walked away. With the new simplified rules, the attendance increased. Regardless of this years current car count, I know there are a bunch of new cars being prepped (at risk if the rules change significantly) for 2017.

David, Thanks for your comments.

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman HalfDork
9/2/16 11:39 a.m.

The only rule I think needs changed is the recoup rule.

"Up to half the total budget may be recouped by selling parts originally included with or attached to the Challenge car, related parts car(s), or related parts packages at the time of purchase. You may not factor gains or losses made from buying, selling, or trading unrelated parts into your budget."

This wording allows for me to recoup more than I paid for any one item or parts car to recoup money towards the total $1008 allowed. Currently I have used a Miata control arm bolt on my Q45 to replace a bolt on the car. I can find receipts for over $1008 of parts I sold off a Miata I purchased for $300. This would allow me to spend an extra $708. I just don't think this loophole should be allowed.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/2/16 11:54 a.m.

In reply to Andy Neuman:

While I agree that that rule could be worded better, the example following it is pretty clear:

"Example: If you buy an engine for $100, use the heads on your Challenge car, then resell the rest of the engine for $80, you may recoup $80, assuming your build has not already hit the recoup limit."

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/2/16 11:57 a.m.

ALL rules create loopholes. The quest for a perfect set of rules is folly, and limits creativity.

If you are good at reading, and creative at interpreting, there are LOTS of things that are allowed that no one has yet tried. I LIKE it that way!

tomtomgt356
tomtomgt356 Reader
9/2/16 11:59 a.m.

In reply to Andy Neuman:

I don't see an issue with that rule. Everyone has $2016 to spend and they can sell $1008 in parts. I think it simplifies things. If you buy one car for it's body and another for it's engine you don't have to worry about how much you sold off of which car. I also don't think people should be penalized because they have hagling skills and can get a running car for $200.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/2/16 12:03 p.m.
spin_out wrote: I'm still in favor of the simplistic roll bar being exempt because in a lightweight Miata it only adds: weight that hurts my performance, and a feeling of safety. We are hoping to run 16.5 seconds in the 1/4 mile. We wont need it for the power we have, we'd more likely need it for the build sitting next to us that might come into our lane. (I'm thinking about Dave Melton's Miata were I think he might have been hit by a college team.)

If you actually have such safety concerns in a Miata, I recommend leaving the factory installed safety devices intact (air bags, belts, door bars, etc). They have been engineered and crash tested, and are free to the budget.

OR, include the rollbar price in your budget. It's not hard to find an over-the-counter used roll bar for a Miata for $50.

Or, don't race. It's dangerous.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/2/16 12:06 p.m.
tomtomgt356 wrote: In reply to Andy Neuman: I don't see an issue with that rule. Everyone has $2016 to spend and they can sell $1008 in parts. I think it simplifies things. If you buy one car for it's body and another for it's engine you don't have to worry about how much you sold off of which car. I also don't think people should be penalized because they have hagling skills and can get a running car for $200.

I disagree.

That would encourage people to buy discount crap JUST for the purpose of building their budget. Buy a running car for $1950, then an additional $50 car so you can sell stuff from it to put another $1008 into the budget. Bleh.

That's not the intent. Andy's right, it's worded poorly, but the staff has been clear on the intent, and the example in the rules is not hard to understand.

tomtomgt356
tomtomgt356 Reader
9/2/16 12:07 p.m.
SVreX wrote: It's not hard to find an over-the-counter used roll bar for a Miata for $50.

Where are you finding roll bar's for $50? All I'm seeing at that price are style bar's. (not trying to be a jerk, I would love to find a roll bar for $50)

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
9/2/16 12:12 p.m.

In reply to tomtomgt356:

Ask on this board. Try an ad in the $2016 classifieds.

Spec Miata rules have changed, and older bars are no longer allowed. That makes them cheap.

Damaged bars and ugly bars are always cheap. So are most DIY built ones.

But it doesn't really matter. It's not a safety issue in a Miata- it's a budget issue. Anyone can have a bar- just budget it. That's what I did.

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