Challenge Supreme Court (Questions Answered Here!)

SVreX wrote:

Ashyukun wrote:

DeadSkunk wrote: Budget question. My Challenge car came with 4 tires, I bought 2 drag slicks and I came across 4 road race tires in the scrap pile at the track. The slicks go in the budget, and the race tires were free, I think? If I want to use two of the original tires the car came with as front drag tires ,how do I budget this?

Interesting question... I would think you would count the tires that came on the car as your 'free' set, the drag slicks are in the budget, and the road race tires (I wish I knew where to look to find free r-comps in the trash ) would be a $0 budget item since you paid nothing for them and (presumably) anyone could have grabbed them from the scrap pile.

I disagree. The "free" tires can be any 4 of your choosing. That probably means the drag slicks (assuming they are most expensive). The tires that came with the car are already in the budget- they were in your purchase price. The tires you pulled from the dumpster are no cost to the budget, but ONLY if the dumpster was available to the general public. If you got them because your buddy opened the gate for you, they go in the budget. It's covered in the first FAQ question in the rules: $2017 Challenge Rules

This is something I think there will need to be a formal answer to- as I read it (and thought I understood from previous discussions...) if the car came with a set of tires and you use them, they count as your 'free' set of tires. If you don't use the original tires at all and buy race tires, the race tires count as your 'free' set- but if you run both of them, you need to include either the race tires or and FMV for the original tires.

It's obviously complicated, because in a number of situations you could have many 'free' tires but only one set counts as the official 'free' set. For example, if someone bought my Riviera and brought it to the Challenge they could run any of the 3 sets of wheels & tires it includes at no budget hit since they were part of the purchase price, but it would be up in the air how you would properly budget if you then bought a set of new R-comps to run on it as well. As you're interpreting the rules SVreX the additional tires bought would count as free, but as I interpret it one set of the tires that came with the car would be the 'free' ones and the R-comps would have to go in the budget.

Ashyukun wrote:

SVreX wrote:

Ashyukun wrote:

DeadSkunk wrote: Budget question. My Challenge car came with 4 tires, I bought 2 drag slicks and I came across 4 road race tires in the scrap pile at the track. The slicks go in the budget, and the race tires were free, I think? If I want to use two of the original tires the car came with as front drag tires ,how do I budget this?

Interesting question... I would think you would count the tires that came on the car as your 'free' set, the drag slicks are in the budget, and the road race tires (I wish I knew where to look to find free r-comps in the trash ) would be a $0 budget item since you paid nothing for them and (presumably) anyone could have grabbed them from the scrap pile.

I disagree. The "free" tires can be any 4 of your choosing. That probably means the drag slicks (assuming they are most expensive). The tires that came with the car are already in the budget- they were in your purchase price. The tires you pulled from the dumpster are no cost to the budget, but ONLY if the dumpster was available to the general public. If you got them because your buddy opened the gate for you, they go in the budget. It's covered in the first FAQ question in the rules: $2017 Challenge Rules

This is something I think there will need to be a formal answer to- as I read it (and thought I understood from previous discussions...) if the car came with a set of tires and you use them, they count as your 'free' set of tires. If you don't use the original tires at all and buy race tires, the race tires count as your 'free' set- but if you run both of them, you need to include either the race tires or and FMV for the original tires. It's obviously complicated, because in a number of situations you could have many 'free' tires but only one set counts as the official 'free' set. For example, if someone bought my Riviera and brought it to the Challenge they could run any of the 3 sets of wheels & tires it includes at no budget hit since they were part of the purchase price, but it would be up in the air how you would properly budget if you then bought a set of new R-comps to run on it as well. As you're interpreting the rules SVreX the additional tires bought would count as free, but as I interpret it one set of the tires that came with the car would be the 'free' ones and the R-comps would have to go in the budget.

I'm with SVreX here. When you bought your car, if it included tires, those are already in the budget (ie, they weren't free). If you then buy four new tires, those new ones can count as your free tires.

So in this case, if the r-comps were truly free, here's the breakdown:

Drag fronts: In budget, but already counted in value of original car purchase

Drag rears: Use 2 out of 4 free tire allowance.

R-comps: In budget, but acquired for FMV of $0, so no budget hit.

In reply to Ashyukun:

Did you read the FAQ?

It specifically says (in the example given) that there could be 8 free tires. The example is almost identical to this situation.

I remember the conversation you are referring to, but this one is in the rules.

In reply to SVreX:

I still disagree- the example doesn't say anything about tires that were included in the price of the vehicle itself, just the one set of tires was purchased and the other was gotten for free.

It comes down in my interpretation as to whether tires that came with the car are considered 'free' no matter what else you do, or whether they're only considered 'free' if you use your 4 free tire 'allowance' on them.

Honestly? I hope my interpretation is wrong since it means that I could have two sets of tires for free in my budget instead of only having (hopefully, if I can track some down once I figure out exactly which car I'll have and what it will need tire-wise...) the set of race tires.

In reply to SVreX:

So, after reading the example in the rules multiple times, I can claim all my tires as free. Somehow I had the idea that the 4 cheapest tires were free. By this new interpretation I don't have to claim the 50 bucks for the drag slicks in my budget. I'll await Tom's input before I go spend it though.
Also. I could go buy a new set of Hoosier A7s and claim them as my four free tires, throwing the two drag slicks into the budget.

Whatever is on the vehicle needs to be budgeted, imo. Whether you ended up with purple crack when you bought it or snows. So if you put on different tires, they need budgeted whether as part of the 4 free allowance or not. The others you use need to be budgeted at fmv. And by fmv, I don't care if you claim they came on it or you bought them, assign them a value and roll with it.

Yes, I know this can lead to having 8 free tires, but if you're swapping to something else to run the other event, they need a $ value. If you run the same 4 tires in all events, they would be free towards the budget, IMO. The rules only state 4 free tires.

In reply to Ashyukun:

To find free race tires you just need to wander by the tire supplier trailer at any race track and see if they have any take-offs laying around. I happened to go to the Hoosier trailer at my local track to ask some questions about compound differences between the R7, A7 and SM7 tires. They had a half dozen SM7 take-offs that were headed for the scrap bin. A couple were corded , but I found 4 usable ones that will certainly last an afternoon. And, anyone can go do that.

Guys,

You are welcome to await Tom's feedback, but after 14 trips to the Challenge, I've never heard of any such thing.

Tires that came with the car are already in the budget. You paid for them when you bought the car.

When buying a sub $1K car, the condition of the tires almost determines the value of the car. $500 cars don't come with a brand new set of A7's.

If your car came with a leather interior, it's in the budget. If it came with a thumping sound system, same thing. And if you happen upon a $500 car wearing new A7's, you have the start to a great Challenge car.

Mine came with two sets of wheels and tires, two trunk lids, leather interior, a nice Sony stereo with an amp in the trunk, cruise and air.

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but what is the schedule of events for the Challenge? I'm trying to sort out the logistics of travel and arriving on time, etc.

SVreX wrote: Tires that came with the car are already in the budget. You paid for them when you bought the car. When buying a sub $1K car, the condition of the tires almost determines the value of the car. $500 cars don't come with a brand new set of A7's. If your car came with a leather interior, it's in the budget. If it came with a thumping sound system, same thing. And if you happen upon a $500 car wearing new A7's, you have the start to a great Challenge car.

Definitely- finding a car with kick-ass tires, engine or suspension upgrades, or other performance enhancements on the cheap is a good bit of the fun of the Challenge (at least in my opinion).

As I understand it though, in its current incarnation, the intent of the 4 free tires rule is to ensure that you have a safe set of tires on which to compete- meaning that if you buy a $500 car with 4 bald and corded 30-year-old tires on it that you don't take a budget hit getting good, safe tires. Of course, it also has the secondary impact of somewhat leveling the field to allow those who may not have access to a source for free racing tires to buy some to use as their 'safe' tires on the car instead of normal street tires.

But- if your car came with a set of tires that you can (and want...) to run with, I don't think the rule is intended for you to be able to get another set of tires 'free'- you already have your 'free', safe tires on the car.

Where we don't disagree I imagine is that if you (as in the original question that spawned this discussion) are fortunate enough to find actual free-to-anyone tires that you can use as many of them as you want with no budget hit. Also, if the car came with multiple sets of tires then they're of course all free- it's (per my interpretation, of course) just that you can't then pick up (read: buy for more than $0) another set and have those be free too in your budget.

I don't imagine SVreX and I are going to agree on this without until we get an official ruling, so I'll say no more on it.

Ashyukun wrote: But- if your car came with a set of tires that you can (and want...) to run with, I don't think the rule is intended for you to be able to get another set of tires 'free'- you already have your 'free', safe tires on the car.

That is not correct. Even if your car came with 100 sets of brand new tires, you're still able to buy another fresh set of whatever you want for "free" aka no budget hit. Making sure that you have a "safe set to drive on" is not the intent of the rule.

People still drive on unsafe tires, regardless of the alllowance.

The rule was created to eliminate shenanigans with people claiming they had found "free" tires (that still had the brand new manufacturer's labels on them).

Go for it, Tom.

darkbuddha wrote: Maybe I missed it somewhere, but what is the schedule of events for the Challenge? I'm trying to sort out the logistics of travel and arriving on time, etc.

Schedule can be found right here.

Ed Higginbotham wrote: Schedule can be found right here.

Thank you, but did you just add that? Because I spent far too much time searching for it yesterday... I mean, like more time than I've actually spent working on my Challenge car so far.

Haha. Yes I just had just added it.

I have a few challenge related questions, due to my location I am mostly doing it as a 'playing along' kind of thing.

Car in question is an 86 Camaro that my mother has gifted to me. Been in the family and sitting around the farm for roughly 15 years. Do I need to put an actual monetary value on it or does it classify as a free car?

Secondly, in regards to purchasing parts, two things.

I am in Canada. Do I convert money spent on the same day as part purchase or tally total at the end?

My day job is parts counter at Napa, so my price is different from over the counter price. Do I budget at my total spent or total what a regular customer would have spent?

As I said, this is mostly as a playing along kind of build to see how innovative I can be to get the car back on the road then on track (local-ish to me tracks anyways) and have some fun in the process.

Thank you,

Tim

Exhaust questions:

1. Is there a requirement for where the exhaust exits the car? (Side pipes, hood top exit, fender exit, etc.)

2. Can the exhaust route through the passenger compartment?

As in, engine bay space is limited, and the car is low. Can the exhaust enter the passenger foot well and exit out the side of the car? I would most likely put in a sheet of metal to make a "new passenger foot well".

3. Are open headers an option or does the exhaust have to exit the vehicle?

The only real requirements are in the nhra rules, which says "exits away from driver"

don't blow it at your face and you should be okay.  

In reply to Patrick :

So a pipe aimed straight down under the engine bay would just be good for blowing sand off the autox track (sort of the opposite of the Sucker Vette) and legal?

   Down with the exaust is not Out or Away, and if you have an american V-8 you won't be able to think or Breath, Do your self a favor and exit it to the OUTSIDE of the car, Which is per Nhra rules, and probably Scca.  on another note in regards to routing,  even if you run it behind the rear end it is smart to exit it outside the body for Noise in the cabin, it is deafining  I mean it's so bothersome you really can't Think.

Tom Suddard said:

In reply to Ranger50:

Regarding exhaust, here:

NHRA Rules: said:

 

NHRA Rules said: All vehicles must be equipped with exhaust collectors, headers, or stacks installed to direct exhaust out of vehicle body to rear of car, away from driver and fuel tank. No part of the exhaust system may be routed through the driver’s compartment. Exhaust system components must be securely fastened (i.e., metal connector straps, bolted, welded, etc.) to prevent loss of system components during competition. All removable multipiece exhaust collectors/stacks must be securely fastened with either an NHRA-accepted header tether, a minimum 1/2'' (half-inch) stitch weld located on each primary tube, or be permanently attached to the vehicle body or frame with positive fasteners (i.e., exhaust hangers, support brackets, bolts/nuts, etc.) such that they require tools for removal. A current list of NHRA-accepted header tethers is available on NHRARacer.com. Flexible tubing or “flex pipe” prohibited in all categories. If mufflers are used, they must be securely attached to exhaust system and vehicle body or frame.

 

What exactly do you have planned for exhaust?

If he offered it to anyone publicly, then it's free. If he didn't, then it's FMV.

Tom quoted the NHRA rules on exhaust a page or two back, and I still am unclear because it does state "to rear of car", but plenty of dragsters seem to not route exhaust all the way to the rear. Plus the pics of people dumping turbo downpipes out if front of front wheels and stuff. Am I hearing that just outside of the body is good enough, or does it need to be behind driver/axle/midpoint/something else?

In reply to Robbie:

Yeah, rear of the car exit, I won't say impossible, but extremely difficult. Side exit seems to be the easiest solution, but I was going to need to route it through the passenger compartment. I guess I will just have to cut and modify the passenger compartment to be smaller to make room for a side exit. 

It says "direct exhaust out of body to rear of car". That means don't stick it out the front bumper pointing forward.  It also means you can't just stick it out the side of the car without a bend of some sort to direct the exhaust to the rear of the car.  You can't blow exhaust at the driver, or a competitor on the other lane.

If it had meant a full exhaust with continuous piping to the back bumper of the car, it would say so. 

Since we all know many, many race cars do not have full exhaust, it is unreasonable to interpret this otherwise. 

SVreX said:

It says "direct exhaust out of body to rear of car". That means don't stick it out the front bumper pointing forward.  It also means you can't just stick it out the side of the car without a bend of some sort to direct the exhaust to the rear of the car.  You can't blow exhaust at the driver, or a competitor on the other lane.

If it had meant a full exhaust with continuous piping to the back bumper of the car, it would say so. 

Since we all know many, many race cars do not have full exhaust, it is unreasonable to interpret this otherwise. 

That makes sense. I think I can work with that.