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Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/11/17 12:55 p.m.

SVreX, I've got this figured out I think. Test:

Search this thread for answers

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/11/17 12:57 p.m.

And I'll update the first post to ask for headings.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/11/17 1:02 p.m.

Yeah, it's not perfect, but it should at least get you to the correct page without too much fuss.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
4/11/17 1:34 p.m.

BTW...

There are VERY FEW questions that have not been addressed in the rules (including NHRA and SCCA). There are, however, many, many times when questions are asked which are clearly addressed in the rules. But, 1) Many of us are too lazy to look, and 2) Many of us like to talk. So, it's easier to ask than to read.

I suggest trying to refer people back to the rules as often as possible.

bluej
bluej UltraDork
4/11/17 1:52 p.m.

Tom's link works, or you can type exactly this into google (sans quotes): "site:https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/challenge-supreme-court-questions-answered-here/128167/" search term

Ovid and Flem, I did some testing to see if it was working, and to make sure it would search the whole thread and not just a single page. It looks like it only works for posts that are older than 24 hours or so. Probably has to do with if google has had a chance to scrape the page yet. Just something for everyone to keep in mind, ie: Do the search, but also look back at the last days worth of posts.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/11/17 2:12 p.m.

In reply to SVreX:

You're right, in that most of these answers are already in the current set of rules. But I want more people to build Challenge cars, and I'm willing to answer questions in order to get them to. I've watched events and sanctioning bodies dwindle thanks to the "it's in the rules, noob!" approach to dumb questions, and I really don't want to follow in their path.

I'll answer every question as clearly as possible, even if it's been asked before, and even if the rules specifically answer it. Thanks for building awesome stuff, everybody. I can't wait to see you at the event.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
4/11/17 2:25 p.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

I like that answer.

aussiesmg
aussiesmg MegaDork
4/11/17 7:56 p.m.
QuasiMofo wrote:
Tom Suddard wrote:
QuasiMofo wrote: Q: If I have bought two cars from Aussie do I have to claim the drinks I had after the deal was made? Thank you Tom and company. This is a great idea.

No–this isn't the $203,065,903 Challenge.

Oh thank Grip!

Seems I may be gaining a reputation, how can this be?

patgizz
patgizz UltimaDork
4/12/17 7:34 a.m.

can we bring pitchforks and sticks with burning rags at the end and yell rabble rabble to call out competitors on the "don't be a dick" clause in a vigilante mob mentality way?

Asking for a friend. (Actually just trying to lead the guys to use the bold for their question so it doesn't get lost in the mix). Seriously, you guys can't even follow directions in the Challenge Supreme Court thread, how can I trust you not to break the rules?

Tire mount/balance fee loophole: buy your own tire machines, duh!

Ovid_and_Flem
Ovid_and_Flem HalfDork
4/12/17 8:46 a.m.

BATTERY MASTER ELECTRICAL SWITCH. (PART DEUX)

I don't mean to belabor the point, but coupled with Robbie s inquery regarding roll bar sizes we run into areas of conflict between SCCA/NHRA RULES. For example, a battery cutoff switch legal in SCCA might not be legal in NHRA. OK, fine. I'll use one that satisfies both rules.

BUT...NHRA requires cutoff switch to be on rear most portion of car. SCCA does not...just accessible from outside car. My battery has been relocated to passenger compartment. If I have to mount kill switchit rearward will require about 12 more feet of battery cable. Whereas if I mount it as allowed by SCCA on cowl or accessible through passenger window and clearly marked will only require 3 feet of additional cable. Not so much concerned about a budget hit but rather trying to keep hot wiring to a minimum.

I guess my ultimate more general question would be will GRM be able to waive certain rules when there is a conflict between SCCA NHRA?

Not trying to be a nitpicky dick. I just don't want to drag This Old Car 700 miles to Gainesville only to have to rewire it when I get there

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/12/17 9:09 a.m.

Yes, we can, and that's a good point. Our "normal" motorsports sanctioning bodies have requirements that are much different from the NHRA's. We've already exempted vehicles from certain NHRA rules. For cars that run slower than a 11.49 E.T., the tech inspector will allow a list of specific violations of the NHRA rule book that we provide. Faster cars must fully adhere to the rule book.

Right now, this is the list:

Windows must be rolled up during drag runs (if you don't have windows, you'll be required to wear a full-face helmet).
Welded differentials prohibited.
Mandatory C-clip eliminators.

I'll add "Battery shutoff switches: alternative construction and placement acceptable. Must remain within driver's and first responder's reach and be clearly labeled on the exterior of the vehicle."

If you run faster than a 11.49 E.T., though, be prepared to follow the full NHRA rule. And no janky home-built death trap battery switches.

I need to run this change by the track, but I think they'll be ok with it.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 UltimaDork
4/12/17 9:19 a.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

Does that mean that a plastic keyed switch on the back bumper is now acceptable?

Stampie
Stampie Dork
4/12/17 9:25 a.m.
patgizz wrote: can we bring pitchforks and sticks with burning rags at the end and yell rabble rabble to call out competitors on the "don't be a dick" clause in a vigilante mob mentality way? Asking for a friend. (Actually just trying to lead the guys to use the bold for their question so it doesn't get lost in the mix). Seriously, you guys can't even follow directions in the Challenge Supreme Court thread, how can I trust you not to break the rules? Tire mount/balance fee loophole: buy your own tire machines, duh!

Yes but you still have to buy your weights. I don't because I have a loophole.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/12/17 9:46 a.m.

In reply to Dusterbd13:

I need to confirm with the track, but I'm okay with it on slower cars. But do you really want to go through the hassle of putting it on your back bumper and still not be actually NHRA legal? The difference in price between a plastic and a metal switch is only a few dollars.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/12/17 9:51 a.m.

In reply to patgizz:

Yes. Staging lane 5 will be designated for rabbling.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 UltimaDork
4/12/17 9:57 a.m.
Tom Suddard wrote: In reply to Dusterbd13: I need to confirm with the track, but I'm okay with it on slower cars. But do you really want to go through the hassle of putting it on your back bumper and still not be actually NHRA legal? The difference in price between a plastic and a metal switch is only a few dollars.

The plastic one was in the car when I bought it, and i installed it in the back bumper per nhra rules before I saw the part about no keyed or plastic switches.

Im more concerned about legality vs budget. Because 20 bucks is 20 bucks.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/12/17 10:23 a.m.

Okay, fair enough.

Stampie
Stampie Dork
4/12/17 2:18 p.m.

In reply to GTXVette:

With all due respect I disagree.

First relocating the battery is a performance advantage so therefore you need to do it according to rules and within budget.

As was once explained by someone much smarter than me making the rollbar/cage a budget item actually enhances safety but leaving less money in the budget to make the car faster. Think of it as a speed bump of sorts. You want to play with the big boys on the drag them spend the $400 on your cage first before you spend it on another 200 shot of nitrous.

The Challenge isn't easy. First you have to complete your build. Next you have to do it under budget. There are many build threads that are started but never make the Challenge. I know one belongs to me and a future one might never make it either.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/12/17 2:47 p.m.

GTXVette, I'm sorry, but that's a very, very dead horse, and I don't want to open up that can of worms here. We'll put it on the agenda for discussion at this year's Challenge Town Hall, though.

Dusterbd13
Dusterbd13 UltimaDork
4/12/17 3:32 p.m.

We went cage for our safety and chassis rigidity. We put it in the budget. All our choices have been weighed for cost to performance to safety. Except the monster hoosier slicks. Those are purely because i had to do it.

I will advocate for cage in the budget, even if it would benefit my budget by 275. Too much of a fine line between safety and performance there.

mck1117
mck1117 New Reader
4/12/17 7:38 p.m.

STOCK CAST FLYWHEELS

Suppose a vehicle has a stock-ish Subaru drivetrain, in the wrong end of a car that isn't a Subaru. It has a stock iron flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate from an Outback. No part of the driver is ever in plane with rotating assembly. Is this car legal to run?

STOCK CAST FLYWHEELS, PART THE SECOND

Suppose I sell myself my 2013 Focus ST for <= $2017. It has the factory dual mass iron flywheel, twin disk clutch, and an iron pressure plate. Is this car legal to run?

From the discussion in this thread, it seems like the answer to both of these questions is no.

This would leave out tons of cars, like near every car sold with a stock manual transmission.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Associate Editor
4/12/17 11:31 p.m.

If your car is slower than 11.49 ET, then yes, that's legal to run with the stock flywheel and such. Faster and it needs to follow NHRA rules.

mck1117
mck1117 New Reader
4/13/17 1:04 a.m.

Hmm, that disagrees with my reading of the NHRA rules. To me it looks like it states that iron flywheels are prohibited outright, but SFI-spec flywheels are mandatory in some classes. There's a grey area that isn't iron flywheel, but also isn't required to be SFI.

More clutch pedantry, because we did actually consider it for the Insight:

Where does a computer controlled clutch fall? This is possible with an automated manual transmission (see Ram Promaster), a dual clutch box, a VW autostick style setup, or a custom rolled computer controlled clutch. Do these transmission count as an automatic, or are they illegal?

mck1117
mck1117 New Reader
4/13/17 2:04 a.m.

Okay, one more.

TRACTION CONTROL

Is traction control legal?

Section 20 9:11 forbids it.

If I can build a car under budget that uses traction control to be fast, should that be disallowed? It might be against the spirit of NHRA-sanctioned racing, but I think it is in the spirit of GRM challenge racing. Hackjob shenanigans in the name of performance have traditionally been welcomed at the challenge, so long as they were not detrimental to the safety of the car.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
4/13/17 6:47 a.m.
Tom Suddard wrote: If your car is slower than 11.49 ET, then yes, that's legal to run with the stock flywheel and such. Faster and it needs to follow NHRA rules.

Can we go a little further with that?

STOCK CAST IRON FLYWHEELS PART THE THIRD

How about a 12 second car that has an engine swap from another vehicle? Is the stock iron flywheel native to the engine satisfactory?

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