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Ovid_and_Flem
Ovid_and_Flem Dork
11/2/17 11:10 a.m.

In reply to SVreX :

I think most folks are concerned with the reverse issue.  E.g., I bought a BMW wagon 10 years ago for $6k, drove it in the ground, blew up engine.  Now I want to do an LS1 swap into it.  What/how do I value it?

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
11/2/17 11:56 a.m.

In reply to Ovid_and_Flem :

I understand. That one probably falls into FMV. 

But the previous posts seemed concerned with using FMV to justify their budget, which is completely unnecessary. 

If you get a good deal, you get a good deal. 

AWSX1686
AWSX1686 Dork
11/2/17 12:24 p.m.

FMV applies if I "sell" parts to myself correct?

How about raw materials? Say I need some metal or raw wire, FMV could be scrap price? Nothing saying you couldn't find such materials in a scrap yard. 

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
11/2/17 2:08 p.m.
AWSX1686 said:

FMV applies if I "sell" parts to myself correct?

How about raw materials? Say I need some metal or raw wire, FMV could be scrap price? Nothing saying you couldn't find such materials in a scrap yard. 

Slippery slope. 

I've noticed several competitors recently using FMV as an "either/ or". That's not what it's there for. 

You can't go buy new steel at $100, but substitute the FMV value of $7.20 because there's "Nothing saying you couldn't find such materials in a scrap yard". 

If you have the metal laying around already, that may be a legitimate approach. But it's not an "either/ or". You don't get to choose which ever price you want just because it's cheaper. If you bought it, use a receipt. 

Unfortunately, the "either/ or" approach is becoming popular enough that it could risk a rule change, which would be too bad because there is a legitimate use for FMV. 

frenchyd
frenchyd HalfDork
11/2/17 2:35 p.m.

In reply to SVreX : fair market value works only if things haven't increased in value from the point you bought them.  

A supercharger that has dramatically increased in value because of rarity will not make any more power than one recently purchased.  Why should it go on the budget at it's increased value rather than its original cost?  

I understand the need for receipts but there needs to be an understanding of decades of ownership too!  

I have many  perfectly nice, unused, rod ends that I acquired as Navy surplus back in the early 70's   I don't remember exactly what I paid  probably in the 15-20 cent each range.  Without a receipt do I use today's fair market value?  

Just for proper perspective I won't be taking advantage of any of the rule changes I propose.   

I intend to run in exhibition class because I don't  want to bother with receipts and etc.  I intend to be at or below the budget limit just because I think it's a worthy goal.  I'd like to challenge myself to see how competitive I can still be.  Besides a real gentleman would never take advantage of others.  Frankly a lifetime of racing should provide at least a little advantage.  

Stampie
Stampie SuperDork
11/2/17 2:50 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Hate to say it but tough titties. I wanted to use a TH400 trans I bought for $100 years ago with no receipt. The GRM forum FMV it higher.  I put my tail between my legs and didn't use that trans. 

frenchyd
frenchyd HalfDork
11/2/17 3:44 p.m.

In reply to Stampie : Since most of the parts I intend to use I've lost any receipt many decades ago I simply could not race.  Except as I intend to do, exhibition class only.  I'll still stick to the budget  but it won't matter.  I'll go simply to have fun   

 

GTXVette
GTXVette Dork
11/2/17 5:23 p.m.

In reply to Stampie :

Dude what did FMV Value it at, I just Sold 2 400's At About 50 each Both were Complete One was Whole and one was a Thick Case That I disasembled to re build, But Ultra Clyde GAVE me a Grand National 200r4 so I let them Go. Had I seen that Question from you I would say Rebuilders Price 35 to 50 Bucks!. Sorry I missed that Post.

GTXVette
GTXVette Dork
11/2/17 5:32 p.m.

Frenchy, The engine for my Vette Was In A Boat , The owner thought it was badly Damaged Sold it to me for 400 bucks,it had the wrong Push rods in it, I paid 400 dollars for it But He is In Prison and I have no receipt, I will Claim 400 for it.  

conev8r
conev8r New Reader
11/3/17 2:22 a.m.

Reese Rule Clarification:

The "Reese Rule" states:

"The Reese Rule: SFI-approved harmonic balancers, SFI-approved flywheels and SFI-approved flex plates are budget-neutral. These parts are dangerous rotating assemblies that should be treated with respect. Any intact harmonic balancer, flywheel, or flex plate listed on the budget may be exchanged for a duplicate SFI-approved part without increasing or decreasing the budget. “Duplicate” is defined as having the same listed application as the standard part in a major parts catalog. In situations where a standard part is not present to exchange, fair market value of the standard part may be used."

What I'm unsure about is this:

Challenge Car comes with a factory flywheel, clutch and harmonic balancer that are not SFI approved.

Would it be acceptable to simply do a budget-neutral trade with these factory equipped and included parts for the SFI-approved versions for the same application? (This would result in a budget line with something like: "Exchange Factory Equipped Flywheel with SFI Approved Flywheel - $0 - Exempt - No Shipping - $0 - ETC")   Alternatively:  ("Harmonic Balancer - $0 - Non-Exempt - $0 - Included with vehicle purchase, exchanged for SFI Approved Harmonic Balancer")

Additionally, does the Reese Rule encompass clutches (pressure plate and/or friction disc)?

GTXVette
GTXVette Dork
11/3/17 5:48 a.m.

I believe the answer is yes , Just don't try to Use a Dual Or Triple Disc Or 8" instead of 10-11 " Or replace a steel with an Aluminum Flywheel.

edit;  so I see there may be a cost involved with replacing a used up Clutch with a New one, but that should be Minimal.

Stampie
Stampie SuperDork
11/3/17 7:51 a.m.

A clutch is not approved as an exempt item. I asked this before in the thread. There are too many loopholes involved hence why I was hoping they could be exempt. 

Ranger50
Ranger50 UltimaDork
11/3/17 8:16 a.m.

Clutches are sfi at 9.99, iirc... so they will always be counted in the budget. Now if you do some digging you can easy get a decent clutch disc with a stick replacement plate for under $200 and easily throw 600hp at and survive....

Personally, I’m going to run the $25 turbo 400 or free power glide I got from Patrick next year... just need to find the right stall converter for the cam....

AWSX1686
AWSX1686 Dork
11/3/17 9:26 a.m.
SVreX said:
AWSX1686 said:

FMV applies if I "sell" parts to myself correct?

How about raw materials? Say I need some metal or raw wire, FMV could be scrap price? Nothing saying you couldn't find such materials in a scrap yard. 

Slippery slope. 

I've noticed several competitors recently using FMV as an "either/ or". That's not what it's there for. 

You can't go buy new steel at $100, but substitute the FMV value of $7.20 because there's "Nothing saying you couldn't find such materials in a scrap yard". 

If you have the metal laying around already, that may be a legitimate approach. But it's not an "either/ or". You don't get to choose which ever price you want just because it's cheaper. If you bought it, use a receipt. 

Unfortunately, the "either/ or" approach is becoming popular enough that it could risk a rule change, which would be too bad because there is a legitimate use for FMV. 

Ok.... sad 

No, I understand. It will just continue the challenge to get cage materials within budget. 

 

FMV does apply if I sell parts to myself though, correct?

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
11/3/17 11:12 a.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to SVreX : fair market value works only if things haven't increased in value from the point you bought them.  

A supercharger that has dramatically increased in value because of rarity will not make any more power than one recently purchased.  Why should it go on the budget at it's increased value rather than its original cost?  

I understand the need for receipts but there needs to be an understanding of decades of ownership too!  

I have many  perfectly nice, unused, rod ends that I acquired as Navy surplus back in the early 70's   I don't remember exactly what I paid  probably in the 15-20 cent each range.  Without a receipt do I use today's fair market value?  

Just for proper perspective I won't be taking advantage of any of the rule changes I propose.   

I intend to run in exhibition class because I don't  want to bother with receipts and etc.  I intend to be at or below the budget limit just because I think it's a worthy goal.  I'd like to challenge myself to see how competitive I can still be.  Besides a real gentleman would never take advantage of others.  Frankly a lifetime of racing should provide at least a little advantage.  

Your question is long, but basically the answer is yes. 

Its pretty well defined if you read the rules. 

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
11/3/17 11:14 a.m.
AWSX1686 said:
SVreX said:
AWSX1686 said:

FMV applies if I "sell" parts to myself correct?

How about raw materials? Say I need some metal or raw wire, FMV could be scrap price? Nothing saying you couldn't find such materials in a scrap yard. 

Slippery slope. 

I've noticed several competitors recently using FMV as an "either/ or". That's not what it's there for. 

You can't go buy new steel at $100, but substitute the FMV value of $7.20 because there's "Nothing saying you couldn't find such materials in a scrap yard". 

If you have the metal laying around already, that may be a legitimate approach. But it's not an "either/ or". You don't get to choose which ever price you want just because it's cheaper. If you bought it, use a receipt. 

Unfortunately, the "either/ or" approach is becoming popular enough that it could risk a rule change, which would be too bad because there is a legitimate use for FMV. 

Ok.... sad 

No, I understand. It will just continue the challenge to get cage materials within budget. 

 

FMV does apply if I sell parts to myself though, correct?

That wasn't an oversight.  I intentionally skipped that question, because it has been a moving target and should be answered by Tom. 

There have been times when you were not allowed to "sell" to yourself, and times when you could. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Digital Experience Director
11/3/17 11:43 a.m.

Sorry all, I know there are questions to answer here, but been too busy at SEMA (4 hours of sleep per night and 10 miles of walking per day) to put the correct amount of thought in to really respond. I’ll answer everything on Monday when I’m back at my desk. 

AWSX1686
AWSX1686 Dork
11/3/17 12:09 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

Sorry all, I know there are questions to answer here, but been too busy at SEMA (4 hours of sleep per night and 10 miles of walking per day) to put the correct amount of thought in to really respond. I’ll answer everything on Monday when I’m back at my desk. 

Sounds both fun and very tiring!

I think we can all be patient for your replies. We have 11 months yet till the $2018 challenge, waiting a couple days for your response is no issue. 

darkbuddha
darkbuddha HalfDork
11/5/17 3:41 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

Sorry all, I know there are questions to answer here, but been too busy at SEMA (4 hours of sleep per night and 10 miles of walking per day) to put the correct amount of thought in to really respond. I’ll answer everything on Monday when I’m back at my desk. 

Having done the SEMA thing before on a media pass, I feel your pain.  Getting there early to take advantage of the pre-crowds photo-ops, walking the halls endlessly, doing interviews, going to dinner meetings, getting back to the hotel to write copy and edit and upload pics before turning in, just to have to get up in 4 hours (or less!), and then doing it all over again (for 2 or 3 or 4 days), it beats you up to the point that by the end you're just glad it's over.  I say take Monday off and sleep... nothing but sleep.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Digital Experience Director
11/7/17 10:09 a.m.

Woah, no exceptions/exemptions/special treatment/anything for rusty cars. Sorry peeps, but that's why it's called a Challenge.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Digital Experience Director
11/7/17 10:11 a.m.

Yes, you can FMV parts to yourself.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Digital Experience Director
11/7/17 10:12 a.m.

Here's what the rules say about old deals and FMV:

You may never recoup more than a part or car’s purchase price or fair market value (whichever value you listed on your budget sheet.) You may not list fair market value instead of purchase price on your budget unless you do not have a receipt from the purchase, or depreciation/appreciation has drastically affected the car or part’s value.  Free parts must be known to and available to the public (eg. sitting in a ditch on the side of the road). “Free” parts given to you by a friend must be added to the budget at fair market value.

If you bought an engine last week for $800, but the fair market value is actually $200, you must still add it to your budget at $800. 

If, 30 years ago, you bought an engine for $800, you may add it to your budget at today’s fair market value if you desire to.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Digital Experience Director
11/7/17 10:15 a.m.
conev8r said:

Reese Rule Clarification:

The "Reese Rule" states:

"The Reese Rule: SFI-approved harmonic balancers, SFI-approved flywheels and SFI-approved flex plates are budget-neutral. These parts are dangerous rotating assemblies that should be treated with respect. Any intact harmonic balancer, flywheel, or flex plate listed on the budget may be exchanged for a duplicate SFI-approved part without increasing or decreasing the budget. “Duplicate” is defined as having the same listed application as the standard part in a major parts catalog. In situations where a standard part is not present to exchange, fair market value of the standard part may be used."

What I'm unsure about is this:

Challenge Car comes with a factory flywheel, clutch and harmonic balancer that are not SFI approved.

Would it be acceptable to simply do a budget-neutral trade with these factory equipped and included parts for the SFI-approved versions for the same application? (This would result in a budget line with something like: "Exchange Factory Equipped Flywheel with SFI Approved Flywheel - $0 - Exempt - No Shipping - $0 - ETC")   Alternatively:  ("Harmonic Balancer - $0 - Non-Exempt - $0 - Included with vehicle purchase, exchanged for SFI Approved Harmonic Balancer")

Additionally, does the Reese Rule encompass clutches (pressure plate and/or friction disc)?

Clutches are not part of the Reese Rule. But otherwise your accounting looks good.

Stampie
Stampie UltraDork
11/11/17 8:53 p.m.

NHRA rule 1:1 states that all cooling systems/radiators must be in the stock location for the body style used.  Can that be loosened up for the Challenge to allow for more creativity in engine swaps?  Above 11.49 and just because I like dreaming big, below 11.50 also?  Yes I realize this hasn't been enforced in the past but it'd really suck to LS swap a 911 SC and have to air cool it. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard Digital Experience Director
11/11/17 9:40 p.m.

Yes. No problem. 

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